@alexink there was a thread in here just yesterday saying that community in MB is hard ā¦ but I do agree with you.
Different expectations?
@JohnPhilpin Probably expectations. MB has itās own idiosyncratic way of doing things, like Mastodon, theyāre not for everyone.
@JohnPhilpin @alexink it is a little difficult to find your peeps and develop online relationships. Takes patience and effort. However, the interaction here, when it happens, is much more satisfying.
@khurtwilliams well, likely nobody here is family or friend outside the space. It does depress me the amount of posting I do that goes by with no response. But, on FB, 99% of the responses I get are just a thumbs up. Maybe not quite that bad, but you get my point. When I get a response here, itās at least a few words. No family member, none of my real life friends will come here. I have to endure the thumbs up brigade to be in the space they are in. I do it, but I donāt like it. Itās hollow and empty. Something about this space is more honest. I like it better even while being often frustrated by it.
@mbkriegh āItās hollow and empty.ā.
On Facebook I get honest goofy responses from my friends and family. When Iām browsing Micro.blog I am keenly aware that I am in a very tiny subset of humanity. Itās hollow and empty.
@mbkriegh @khurtwilliams It took me three, maybe four years to finally settle in here. Really just in the past 18 months. And I agree with the both of you. I tend to go back and forth in my thinking about micro.blog and also Mastodon in terms of how I interact and what my intention is. I left FB long ago and while I still have an Instagram account Iāve not actively used it for 2 years. My interactions there were meaningless, just the usual likes as you mention. But I do have some family and local friends there. If Threads does federate I would follow and interact with those folks via Micro.blog.
In any case, I do find that my connections and interactions here have evolved over time to feel more real, more meaningful.
An interesting thing about micro.blog is that I get the sense that it is a small community (it feels like I see less than 100 regulars between the timeline and Discover feed) and so it feels small. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes not. Iāve written about it a few times, trying to understand it better but Iāve not made much progress.
I would speculate that a part of the dynamic that I feel is a reflection of the nature of the posts here. So much is brief, casual and of a simple nature. Or often nerdy, technical type discussions. And of course, many great photos. But it can take awhile for such casual, light, brief posts to amount to a sense of knowing or connecting.
Real, authentic community seems easier to build in a physical place, face-to-face. So much more can happen in a short time. Here we only ever connect via glass screens. Here we start as strangers and just slowly type our way into familiarity. Some reveal more than others, some more directlyā¦ just so much to consider. Iām just rambling!
But maybe just keep sharing whatās important to you and what you want or need to. Itās a process for all of us.
@khurtwilliams @mbkriegh Your exchange reminds me a Bollywood cliche - tu hollow & empty, tera baap hollow & empty (you are hollow & empty, your dad is hollow and empty) āŗļø But jokes asides, I also have thoughts on this but itās almost bedtime so maybe tomorrow
@khurtwilliams I feel like I can be more authentically myself here and not boxed in by the relationships Iāve had most of my life. Iāve been hovering over the permanent delete button on FB for many reasons, but this is one of them.
@Denny @khurtwilliams I donāt get much traction wherever I go largely because I donāt do light and breezy banter, nor do I do cute dog and cat photos, nor do I wear my trauma on my sleeve, so to speak. So, I am likely not a good one to go by on the value of any on line community. I do often feel ignored here, but I persist because I like what I post and write and I do it as much for me as anything. And, sometimes, like now, interesting interaction happens. I have been toying with Substack for my writing but it isnāt making sense so far. Just reposting longform stuff I already post here which seems redundant. I have Mastadon, Bluesky, Tumblr accounts, none of which gives me much interaction. Facebook and Instagram still offer greatest interaction, but as I say, not high quality. Perhaps one of the main reasons I am here is that itās such a simple and nice blogging platform. The community is an extra benefit when it happens.
@mbkriegh Your last two sentences here, yes, this exactly. The blog hosting is primary.
@khurtwilliams
@mbkriegh I enjoy your daily walk photos. I see them sometimes just after I have finished my own walk. I think there are quite a few quieter personality types on micro.blog who donāt necessarily feel the need to comment a lot or even read everything on their timeline. We do pop our heads up from time to time to say hi or like or appreciate something someone has said or posted.
@mbkriegh this resonates with me, Iām not a frequent poster. I donāt think Iāve something interesting to post and thus I donāt post. Which is a bit strange since I enjoy reading about other peopleās life (and I rarely comment).
> I donāt do light and breezy banter, nor do I do cute dog and cat photos, nor do I wear my trauma on my sleeve
I guess thatās why I enjoy your posts and replies
@Denny @mbkriegh @khurtwilliams I am starting to understand that, too, now after nearly 5+ years here. I think I leaned too hard on the community aspect. The āā¦when it happensā is the key.
@pimoore Most social platforms have a āreshareā feature. Tumblr calls it āreblogā. Twitter calls it āre-tweetā. Mastodon calls it āboostā. Threads call it ārepostā.
I can see how seeing āboostedā content that you donāt find interesting could be annoying. Some people think a āreshareā feature is a negative, but itās not when used properly.
A āreshareā aims to get content you find interesting, informative, or relevant to YOUR network. It can help support a local cause (e.g. charity event), engage in discussions (change in your local law), or show appreciation for a friendās work or new business venture.
> It took me three, maybe four years, to finally settle in here. Really just in the past 18 months.
>
> ā¦
>
> An interesting thing about micro.blog is that I get the sense that it is a small community
>
> ā¦
>
> I would speculate that a part of the dynamic that I feel is a reflection of the nature of the posts here. So much is brief, casual and of a simple nature.
>
> ā¦
>
> it can take awhile for such casual, light, brief posts to amount to a sense of knowing or connecting.
My syndicate WordPress posts are typically 500 to 1000 words. Lots of photos. After six years, micro.blog is still mall enough that when combined with the piss-poor discoverability features, I rarely get any interaction with my posts.
Iāve been here since the Kickstarter in 2017. Is that long enough?
@khurtwilliams FWIW, being a photo junkie I do look at your photos - I find them interesting - but I rarely comment on them. Why? I donāt really know, usually I donāt know what to say ā¦
@khurtwilliams Yeah, you know, I just clicked over to your profile because I realized itās been awhile since Iāve seen your posts in my timeline and it Iām not following you. Iām thinking that I might have moved you over to my RSS reader at some point and perhaps when switching from Feedly may have lost you in the move. In any case, following here again!
@Denny @khurtwilliams @jemostrom @vincent
Interesting discussion going in here. I agree on the feeling mb being small, and I like that.
I could interact more, but sometimes itās just nice to enjoy other peopleās posts and photos without interacting. A good thing is this service doesnāt care if you interact or but. You wonāt āgetā anything for being a frequent poster. Itās up to you.
As someone of you said, when interactions happen here they are often interesting and never ends in harsh words. Itās friendly here.
How many users are we on mb? Does anyone know?
@Denny because I kept missing posts in the m.b. timeline I added m.b. hosted blogs to my RSS reader awhile ago. The challenge is that many posts donāt link back to the timeline so Iām often unable to leave a comment.
@ndreas is the expectation from the m.b. community that post to m.b. are succinct and go unnoticed? Wouldnāt a note taking app be just as useful?
> How many users are we on mb? Does anyone know?
Iām not sure. I just cleaned unfollowed a bunch of dormant accounts (no posts in over 6 months or more) so my timeline got even quieter.
@khurtwilliams Why? It checks all the boxes that you mentioned. It pointed you to content that I found information and interesting. I could link to the post in making a larger point within a discussion thread, or promote your writing to others. Itās a good āol hyperlink. Now Mb could choose to present it different for the timeline but right now, it effectively takes you to the source.
@khurtwilliams @denny ask @sod for his special feed for your timeline. It links back to the post on the timeline
@pratik Youāre reducing a reducing this to a link to a post. Really?
I think youāre being purposefully obtuse. Am I wrong?
@khurtwilliams No, not being obtuse. Just trying to understand how else can you share someone elseās writing without it being Twitter-style one-click retweeting.
@pratik @khurtwilliams one thing that Iāve toyed with prototyping in Sunlit is a one button āheartā reply. Not in the traditional sense of achieving a count, but in a way to 1:1 interact and let authors know their post/image/content was appreciated. I know and fully understand why the line has been drawn to avoid the negative behavior of like counts, popularity races to the bottom, etc. But Iāve always struggled with the interaction of seeing something and appreciating it, but not knowing really what to say to the author so I donāt.
@cheesemaker @pratik @khurtwilliams 100% this
> Iāve always struggled with the interaction of seeing something and appreciating it, but not knowing really what to say to the author so I donāt.
@cheesemaker there are consequences to @manton decisions. If likes feel vapid I will argue that posting a generaic ābeautiful photoā reponse may feel just as vapid.
@jomalo It does take effort to look at the š¼ļø and think about what you appreciate about it.
@khurtwilliams @cheesemaker I would love to see private Likes that are only visible to the author. I often want to acknowledge something but donāt want it to show in the public timeline because that feels performative and just clutters things up for everyone else. If I want to āboostā it, Iāll post a link. I would hate to see āLikeā counts anywhere.
@jack @khurtwilliams @cheesemaker Weāve also wanted to do more with emoji reactions, which I think serve a similar purpose without getting as bogged down in like counts.
ā¦ donāt want it to show in the public timeline because that feels performative ā¦
@jack, what does that mean? And why is it a negative for you?
The community on micro.blog has a lot of hate for certain social platforms, which feels moralistic and ignorant of the facts.
Hereās what I can do when I post to Instagram.
@manton, why canāt I have that on your platform?
@khurtwilliams For me, the performative aspect is a negative. Itās why I use āreply by emailā on my blog posts instead of comments. A conversation between two people privately is usually more productive/interesting to me. I also donāt wish people Happy Birthday on Facebook. I send a private email/note. Thereās no feeling of, āHey everyone, did you see that I wished so-and-so a happy birthday!?ā Performative. Could be just me.
The option they added on Instagram is useful but if everyone doesnāt use it I donāt see how it solves the fishing-for-likes behavior. I wonder how many people use it only because theyāre embarrassed by the small number of likes? :). I rarely use Instagram, but the whole /point/ of Instagram for a lot of people seems to be to attract and show off their likes. This modifies behavior (not in a good way), and I suspect this is part of the reason for its omission from M.B.
Many people donāt think Like counts are a problem. Iām not one of them.
@khurtwilliams @jack Instagram has done some good work here. Weāre going to add something similar to āturn off commentsā and it has been discussed recently. Iām sticking to no likes, thoughā¦ Itās okay if different social networks have a different philosophy. If someone really wants hashtags and likes, there are a lot of options out there! š Including blogging from Micro.blog but sharing to other networks.
@manton @khurtwilliams Conversations around Likes have been happening for a long time! :) archive.baty.net/2017/likeā¦
Iāve also used the Quotebacks service a few times, but itās more work. More friction. I think Quotebacks could be leveraged with a simple āReblogā button in the UI.
I also wish m.b. supported Open Graph. Itās how Twitter, Facebook, Threads, Mastodon, and even WordPress generate previews when links are shared.
Hereās what my m.b. photo posts look like when syndicated to Twitter.
There should be a link to the original source, but there isnāt. Thatās not Twitter doing that, thatās m.b. posting the content as a native Tweet.
m.b. posts do not work properly in Quotebacks, either.
Hereās what a link on my WordPress (full open graph support out of the box) looks like when shared on Twitter.
Hereās a link from my micro.blog looks like when shared on Twitter.
With has some Open Graph support m.b. so that links posted elsewhere (e.g. Mastodon) show a preview. But even that doesnāt work properly).
m.b. does not support Open Graph previews for links from elsewhere. I think this is deliberate, but I donāt know why. You can wrap the entire share with Open Graph. Itās doable. Itās just not being done.
M.b. seems designed to introduce as much friction as possible into doing nearly everything associated with sharing.
I commented on this thread early on ā¦ Would be great if there was a way to do something like bookmark where I can (say) follow the thread so that when I come back to micro blog ā¦ I am alerted that the conversation has continued ā¦ click and there is the thread.
// @pratik
@manton @jack @khurtwilliams thatās basically what Iāve been thinking about trying on Sunlit. A simple heart button that auto replies with a ā¤ļøemoji.
@zbarocas @jack @khurtwilliams Thank you! Iām glad you like it, and I think itās a totally valid use to focus mostly on the blogging part. Of course we can keep improving the social parts too, even if it feels like that happens slowly.
@jack I appreciate that perspective. Give the poster control instead of trying to control everything they do.
@khurtwilliams Thanks for that detailed answer with screenshots. I can totally see your frustration. So when I said, you could reblog with a hyperlink, I wasnāt too far off the mark. Now it just remains for Mb to present that link with an OpenGraph preview like it does on Twitter, etc., right? @Moondeer had developed some plugins for Micro.blog for this purpose, but he took them off the plugin directory since they required more tinkering than plug-n-play (I think).
You are right about the friction on doing some things on Mb, but some of that friction might be by design (lack of likes, for, e.g.) due to the values @manton has when he conceived the site. I understand and appreciate that since this is his company.
You mentioned Quotebacks, and they excited me too when I first discovered them, but I realized that they look great on the blog but not so much on the timeline. Also, there are better suited for longform posts and not micro ones. At heart, Mb is two different things - the blogging platform and the timeline/community. You can do either or both. So yes, if the timeline is seen as an integral part of the platform (not sure if @Manton sees it that way), then it can do with plenty of UI/UX improvements including supporting OpenGraph.
> A conversation between two people privately is usually more productive/interesting to me. I also donāt wish people Happy Birthday on Facebook. I send a private email/note. Thereās no feeling of, āHey everyone, did you see that I wished so-and-so a happy birthday!?ā Performative. Could be just me.
I understand. I send Happy Birthday messages directly to friends and family instead of using the group SMS. But the users of this platform should be given a choice.
We canāt do private messaging on m.b.
> The option they added on Instagram is useful but if everyone doesnāt use it I donāt see how it solves the fishing-for-likes behavior.
>
> ā¦
>
> rarely use Instagram, but the whole /point/ of Instagram for a lot of people seems to be to attract and show off their likes.
If someone wants to fish for like, let them. Why try to control them? Let them be!
Why is the conversation, āI donāt like this behaviour, so no one else must do itā?
To me sounds like morality policing.
@cheesemaker @khurtwilliams I remain conflicted about Likes. Even if their counts are not displayed, it can be a ālazyā way to engage. Glass.photo implemented Appreciations few months ago. Anecdotally, I saw an instant drop in comments.
@pratik ābeautiful photoā in a comment is also a lazy way to engage.
> Glass.photo implemented Appreciations few months ago. Anecdotally, I saw an instant drop in comments.
Do you know that the drop off was related to adding āAppreciationsā?
@pratik @khurtwilliams We really need to do more with Quotebacks. Not even close to reaching the potential there. Bumping the timeline limit to 600 characters when using quotes helps a little, but the authoring and display could be better.
> We canāt do private messaging on m.b.
It would help to have this but I understand the wariness given due to privacy concerns and the ability to get it absolutely right.
> If someone wants to fish for like let them. Let them be them. Why is the conversation, āI donāt like this so no one else must do itā? It starts to sound like morality policing.
Dunno about morality policing but itās perfectly within @Mantonās rights to āpoliceā (nudge is a better word) behavior through software affordances. Within limits, you can do whatever you want to on your blog but the design of the timeline is his prerogative. We can argue ad nauseam about how we would do it (if we owned Micro.blog) but then thatās all we can do.
@khurtwilliams Definitely ad hoc ergo propter hoc argument but I find a ābeautiful photoā comment much better than a ālikeā or even an emoji response. Sometimes I respond with more and at times, a conversation ensues. A Like will never spark that. Some of my family Whatapp groups have gone for months with only photos and emoji responses. No conversation at all. No āwhere was this?ā, or āThat looked funā, etc.
@manton I appreciate that youāre sticking with what makes micro.blog unique. There are plenty of other options for people who want them. We donāt need yet another big tech clone.
@khurtwilliams Iāve no desire to police morality, people can of course do what they please, but I do think that features can and do enable/encourage the kind of behavior that ruins platforms for me. Iām convinced that the constant fishing for attention has contributed to the general polarity and extremism weāve seen over the past decade. Itās more to me than, āJust let me like someoneās post, geez!ā I appreciate your perspective, though, and the conversation, thanks!
@jack Interesting to see that the discussion has been going on a bit longer. Is there a micro.blog #history hashtag or culture emoji to keep track of past incisive discussions? Would be valuable especially as a newbie.
@jack I agree. āPrescriptionistsā abound and are reliably annoying. Aggregated behaviors just have a different, hard to manage gravity. So obviously shit goes sideways often and then itās no fun or good or value for anyone. Bleh.
And, to all really, conversation is important and not always easy, so thx!
@bkryer What is not? Iām sorry, but since conversations like these on Mb are not appropriately threaded, I can never tell who is responding to what comment. One more UX improvement is needed š
@pratik The idea that these emotions or affections be captured as verbs in the software, that is near the lowest end of the attention spectrum, in my book anyway. It is not engagement at all.
Ignore, gesture, comment, discuss; only then do you get close to engagement. But simpleton greedheads would rather have something to count.
Actual engagement requires prolonged focused attention, difficult in any circumstances, but near impossible for many wandering around the information circus.
@khurtwilliams I think that āwhen used properlyā is key. My experience from Mastodon is mixed, boosts (and to a larger degree replies) have been the way Iāve discovered new people. But it has also forced my to mute people who do a huge numbers of boots. So I have very mixed feelings about this feature.
@khurtwilliams An honest question: sometimes, or more correctly āoftenā, I want to say āIāve seen your photo/post, and I appreciate it ā¦ but I canāt come up with a nice, meaningful replyā and I donāt know what is the best way to show this appreciation. What is your opinion of how this should be handled, a like button or do you think there is a better way?
@pratik @khurtwilliams @manton I get that, but I also donāt think that all engagement that encourages more blogging is bad. Making things that you want to do easy, isnāt the same to me as creating a ālikeā counter.
@cheesemaker @jack We have direct messaging now if someone initiates it from Mastodon, but Iām waiting until secure, social web messaging stabilizes as a standard before doing more. Although, private likes donāt need to be secure.
@khurtwilliams The experimental feeds @pratik mentioned is available over at micro.blog.via.dahlstrand.net.
@jemostrom, my photography mentors recommended looking at the photograph the same way if you were at an art gallery. You can try to think about what about the picture you find interesting. It could be the shapes, the colours, the way it makes you feel, what comes to mind when you look at it. Could you reply with that?
I donāt use the like button on Instagram because I donāt want to feed the algorithm. If I feel nothing, I leave no comment. If I feel something, I leave a comment.
But some people donāt know what to say, so they click the like button.
@bkryer I agree and I rather get or offer a comment than just an emoji. It might make for a slightly quieter web which is ok.
@jemostrom boosts/reblog/retweet etc., are how I have discovered many cool photographers online. Someone retweets/boosts a post, I check out and go, āOh wow! This stuff is very cool. Whereās the blog? Cool, Iāve now added their blog to my RSS feedā. And several times, that same photographer is doing a workshop in the Princeton/New York area, and I meet them in person. But I would never know about that if there was no way to retweet their *original post.
> Not sure the Micro.blog platform can do private messaging though
The platform can do whatever Manton wants it to do.
@khurtwilliams I think I should try to start doing making a few thoughtful comments here and there. It will take some time to get in the habit ā¦ I hope I succeed in making it a habit.
@khurtwilliams Thatās nice, I donāt think I know of any local photographers, except possible my colleague who lives 150m away. They are all on FB so I donāt see them.
I started to collect RSS feeds when Twitter started to become ā¦ āless interestingā ā¦ unfortunately not many photographers (you have been in my feed reader for a year or so). I should start making more of an effort to build a library of feeds.
Thanks for the comments/ideas, now I need to start implementing them.
> I found myself looking at likes (not quite the same thing as looking for likes) more often than I wanted, and kind of sweating it if they were below a certain foggy point.
You have to ask yourself why you do that.
> I tried Path, App.net, Glass, and no doubt others from the more or less current (+/- 15 years) era that I canāt rememember. I first joined Micro.blog as a Kickstarter and have rejoined twice since then.
Iāve been around the web a very, very long time. Iāve also have/had Path, App.net, Glass, Flipboard, Friendster, Friend.io, etc. Iāve had accounts on them all. I built my first static HTML website in 1993. I love the web, and like the first iPhone, using it was a dream come true.
Things seem to have changed a lot since then, but my WordPress blog remains the one thing that remains.
@pimoore @Denny @khurtwilliams @jemostrom @vincent @pratik @manton
When I joined Mastodon and discovered I could hide āBoostsā thatās exactly what I did to every account I followed. Iām not interested in who theyāre boosting but in having conversations with people.
Personally, Iāve found mastodon to be a great place to have said conversations. More so than here. Because, as itās been pointed out further up in this (huge) thread, MB is two entities. A blogging platform (without comments) and an integrated timeline which (unless you visit daily/regularly) means you can miss the conversations that are going on. I think this is why it feels isolating to some.
There is a need to follow a lot of accounts and interact with them on a regular basis, the same as anywhere, in order to find people to connect with. No different to tuning up at the pub and not knowing anyone. You have to be willing to engage with people.
But I would far rather be here, on mb, because it does have community. You just have to work at it.
> ā¦ replying isnāt as seamless as youāre required to jump in and out between your feed reader, and the MB app or web interface
<sarcasm>I love it when software systems and platforms are designed to intentionally introduce friction.</sarcasm >
@alexink
> I think this is why it feels isolating to some.
And no one cares about those people. Right? Because if they did, they would listen to critiques and admit there is a problem. The defence of the status quo starts to feel dismissive.
@pimoore @khurtwilliams Yup, I wish there was a RSS reader that let you comment on a post without leaving the feed reader. Micro.blog is the closest one (if you consider it a feed reader).
BTW use @sodās experimental RSS feed for your timeline so you can at least jump directly to Micro.blog conversation view to reply.
PS. I wish I could link to a reply in Micro.blog but I donāt think I can copy its permalink in the iOS app like I can on the web cc: @vincent
@pimoore @alexink @Denny @khurtwilliams @vincent @pratik @manton Mixed feelings about this, boosts/retweets/whatever can be a way to discover new people to follow but unfortunately, in my opinion that is, some people are too liberal with this - meaning that my timeline becomes something that is of interest to them. So Iāve turned off the viewing of this.
Iāve been thinking about how Iāve done it when I come to a new network and my pattern is pretty consistent. When Iām completely new, I look around and follow a few random account that looks interesting. I also follow back anyone who follow me - even if the account doesnāt look that interesting. I continue this until I follow enough people that the timeline contains new posts when I check it. This usually doesnāt take long, I then switch to almost exclusively follow people who shows up in the replies in the discussions and seem to be interesting.
So for me, the replies are the way I discover new people to follow. Sure, this tactic can be problematic in that it cause a ābubble effectā and that itās slow. But it has worked for me so far.
@pratik @pimoore @khurtwilliams This is one place where Indieweb stuff is getting us closer - social readers like Monocle and Indiepass can kind of get you there but only if youāve got all the Indieweb infrastructure in your site.
@KimberlyHirsh I am excited by social readers. Automattic has something called Reader that is part of their JetPack service. Itās built into WordPress.com but is accessible from self-hosted WordPress (like mine) via the JetPack Service. Itās a combination of an RSS aggregator and a social reader.
You can use the Discover section to search and find blogs to follow. Every blog hosted on WordPress.com or using the JetPack service can be explored. You can use the Reader to follow (via RSS) all your blogs in one place, even blogs that arenāt WordPress.com or Jetpack sites.
You can comment from the Reader interface if the blog is hosted on WordPress and has enabled comments. You can track all your conversations right in the Reader interface.
The only thing lacking is X/Threads/Mastodon/BlueSky style short posts.
Now that I have mentioned this, my frustrations with micro.blog are that the interface and features are lacking compared to what Automattic offers. I have to think long and hard about why Iām still here. Yes, I supported the Kickstarter, but very little of what I thought was promised has been delivered.
JetPack Reader Recents
JetPack Reader Discover
JetPack Reader Likes
JetPack Reader Conversations
Following hashtags/categories on JetPack Reader
> ā¦. boosts/retweets/whatever can be a way to discover new people to follow but unfortunately, in my opinion that is, some people are too liberal with this
Itās a social network. Designed to be used by human beings. The tool is neither good nor bad. How itās used is up to each person.
By removing boosts as a feature, you would also be silencing the people using them properly because some misuse them. Turning these on or off is a useful feature. This feature exists on X (formerly known as Twitter) as well.
I would rather have the ability to enable/disable boost than see the feature removed from those who use it properly.
Except for algorithms, all social media complaints are about society and a reflection of the person in the mirror.
@khurtwilliams Even algorithms can be used correctly, but thatās the problemā¦no company nowadays does.
@khurtwilliams I like Jetpack Reader, though whenever you click subscribe, it will automatically send those posts to your email, hence why I prefer setting up my own reader such as Aperture. Itās more of a challenge, but Iām more technically adventurous, something sorely lacking in todayās day and age.
@cambridgeport90 does that mean we throw everything out and do not have anything? This type of argument doesnāt work for me.
> Even algorithms can be used correctly, but thatās the problemā¦no company nowadays does.
Last I checked, micro.blog does not have any algorithms. How is providing a reshare feature on MB a problem?
@khurtwilliams true. This something I like with Mastodon, I can, and have done so, turn off boosts from some people, while I see others. This together with ability to mute hashtags/words in my client have approved my mastodon experience a lot.
Iām OK with boosting, likes etc as long as Iām able to control my ātimeline experienceā. During my Twitter days I muted both people, hashtags/keywords (I have zero interest in baseball, football, American football, hockey for example). A few times each year I used to remove everything just to see if something had changed.
A huge thing for me, on any network, would be that the conversations are threaded in a way so that becomes easy for me to see who replies to what. Here micro.blog isnāt very good. I use ivory for mastodon and itās better but there is a lot that could be improved.
@khurtwilliams Thatās exactly what Iām saying. Itās no problem at all. I would love to see it, too. I think I misread the post originally and thought that you were referring to a general implementation, not to MB specifically. that was my bad. I will write a longer post regarding my thoughts on both MB and others and where we are on this sort of thing, followed by where we should be.
>I like Jetpack Reader, though whenever you click subscribe, it will automatically send those posts to your email
That is not correct. Clicking āFollowā does not automatically send posts to your email. Following simply adds that blogās RSS feed to JetPack Readerās built-in RSS aggregator. If you want to get email instead, you have to go to the blog post, leave a comment and click explicitly select āNotify me of new posts via email.ā
Some bloggers may choose to enable this by default. Just like everything else in tech. DYOR.
WordPress Comment box
The point of mentioning JetPack Reader was in response to a statement about social readers. I also use the Reeder app on my iPad/Mac/iPhone because JetPack Reader does not support commenting on non-WordPress blogs.
Continuing this discussion is becoming untenable on micro.blog.
We need threaded comments.
Without threaded comments replying on this thread has become unsustainable for me. It doesnāt have to be this way.
@cambridgeport90 šš¾ I look forward to it. My intent with all this was to ask, āWhy canāt we have these nice things at the party at MBās houseā. Everyone pushing back seems to be reacting to what happened at another party at another house without considering whoās on the guest list.
@khurtwilliams if I can add my $0.02, I think youāre trying to make Micro.blog exactly like Twitter which most users on here donāt want it to be. I understand that your needs reflect how the vast majority (nearly all) of internet expect a āsocial networkā to be but Micro.blog is decidedly not designed to be that. Perhaps thatās why the community is so small.
Also, if Manton is choosing not to grow Micro.blog to be a millions-strong, thatās his prerogative and his decision finds a market among select users thatās large enough to make his livelihood.
That said, there are still some improvements that could be made (threaded comments) that also maintain the siteās ethos.
@khurtwilliams i think much of your criticism are actually fair points. I think there are some super interesting ideas in this (enormous) thread generally. However I do like the no-likes and no-quick-retweets/boosts. I would like a way to āboostā that is standard across Micro.blog and as such is easily machine-readable, but I also like the currently very involved nature of āboostingā someoneās post, in which you do it with the āembedā function and possibly add a comment.
I do still swear up and down for community-finding features such as an opt-in directory of users by interest. That would be so good for building community and reducing that sense of loneliness here. And it still maintains that uniqueness to this platform.
@jemostrom, my X, aka Twitter account, is 16 years old this year. I rarely get negative shit in my timeline. Itās incredible how valuable the service is once I put in the time to configure it. I use X to converse with my tribe of F1 fanatics.
As for notifications, I have these disabled for ALL social platforms including micro.blog.
On all platforms, including micro.blog, I regularly review my āfollowsā list and remove dead accounts and accounts whose content is no longer attractive to me.
The features some users think are annoying have a useful purpose for other users. Give the users who donāt want it the ability to disable it. Let the rest carry on.
The lack of threaded conversation on MB carries over to Webmentions.
ASIDE: I also have zero interest in baseball, American football, and hockey. Unlike American high school sports, in the West Indies, all students were encouraged to participate in school sports. I played tennis, football, cricket, basketball, and volleyball and participated in track and field. I have no trophies, but I enjoyed the activity. [Information Technology and Sports] is the name of one of the departments at one of my high schools.
Regarding the āmost usersā reference, I think it is presumptive to make that statement without comprehensive data analysis. Has work been done to gather relevant statistics and user feedback to better understand user preferences? Are all the voices on MB being heard or just the vocal techno-nerd voices?
You started a help thread about feature requests. Thank you. But all feature requests are valuable and essential to building this platform that I helped bankroll. I think each suggestion can contribute to the improvement of our platform.
Regarding the search, re-share, threaded comments, and like features, I can see why they would enhance the experience for many users. There are mechanisms on other larger platforms that enable users to choose which features to enable.
Why canāt we have a search feature? Why canāt we have a re-share feature? Why canāt the MB timeline support Open Graph previews? Why canāt comments be threaded? Why canāt we have a like feature for those who want to say, āI want to acknowledge your contribution, but I donāt have the words to describe that.ā
While itās essential to acknowledge the issues with other platforms, technology alone may not solve all complex societal challenges.
I feel that my opinion does not matters, and I feel dismissed or silenced. If the goal is to create a community that fosters open dialogue and inclusivity, then I think the features I am asking for are essential to that.
I think Manton can build a platform that addresses my needs and those of our hopefully diverse user base.
This really is an epic thread!
I would echo and agree with much of what @khurtwilliams has written. On the one hand I respect the thoughtfulness that @Manton has exercised with the development of micro.blog thus far. But I very much understand the frustration of those that generally seem to express that the simplicity of micro.blog is holding it back in important ways. Particularly that the caution and restraint in the name of community safety (hopefully Iām not mischaracterizing here, this is my impression) is also a named, discernible detriment to building community here.
But I do think some good points have been made in suggesting that perhaps some features could be added that also come with preferences for users? I have no idea of the technical difficulty of such things. Iāve been building basic websites for 20+ years but Iām a simpleton as it pertains to something like micro.blog so will not assume anything about whatās possible here. But I do hope that Manton and team are able to address some of the mentioned shortcomings because they really do seem to blunt the community experience here.
All that said, Iāve migrated my two Wordpress sites to Micro.blog because I felt that WP was just getting to be a bit too much. I wanted simpler. Itās often said by people in the Apple ecosystem that Appleās default apps like Notes fill a nice space. Theyāre capable and always getting better but not as complicated as power user apps. I feel like thatās micro.blog at the moment. For example itās got support for ActivityPub so can be some peopleās Mastodon presence. But itās not the full deal. But allows cross posting to Mastodon and other social services that want those as well. Itās capable enough in many/most ways for many of us. But falls short because we all want something different. Also, of course, everything is always changing and some of folks arenāt actually sure what they want. š
I view micro.blog first as my blog home. The community timeline is a bonus. Itās too limited for me to migrate to as my mastodon client as I follow a far more folks over there and would need to be able to organize groups. Not to mention other Mastodon features I enjoy. So, for me, Iāll keep my mastodon account and access via a Mastodon specific app. The same goes for my rss feeds. Iāve got a lot of feeds I follow and so Iāll keep that separated and managed via an app designed for RSS. In other words, like most of us here, Iāll continue using several apps and several services as a patchwork to accomplish what I want. Thereās cross over between them. No one service or client can unify the experience just yet.
@khurtwilliams Because you want bigger and more doesnāt mean the devteam or manton does. I certainly donāt, but I also donāt think this platform is being built for me.
@khurtwilliams I think my Twitter/X account is from 2007 so itās about the same age. I also had a fairly clean, i.e. what I set it to show, timeline while I was using Twitter. But for me, much of the fun had disappeared several years ago. But Iāve never had any community like you describe.
Iām now trying to create a better experience for myself on micro.blog + mastodon. Iāll probably try bluesky when I get access to it. Threads is a non-issue to me since I live in the EU.
Yeah, doing sport is perfectly OK. Although I personally donāt play football etc. I practice martial arts and I usually find it boring to watch, but actually trying to become better is something I enjoy.
@khurtwilliams May I get back to you on the weekend? Iām traveling now but wanted to respond in detail. BTW your opinions here are much valued hence Iām responding. Also, it seems you really value Micro.blog and want it to work for you. If you were someone who didnāt care, you would have left a long time ago.
@pimoore Indeed, I couldnāt agree more. We have any number of tools available to us now, to be able to pick and choose what to use, and make them work for us.
And I know I could use RSS, but prefer to take the time to slowly follow accounts and to do my best to interact with as many people as possible so that, eventually you find people and connect.
I definitely prefer being here and doing this than any other platform Iāve come across. But then again, there are so many factors involved in what works for each individual person. We just have to find what works for us.
@khurtwilliams Paying customer or not, youāre allowed to do whatever might come to mind. I pay because mb already did (does) what I was looking for, blog hosting, but with a bonus community, and bookmarking, and user flexible css, and rss, and push to other services of interest, and developers that develop (rather than convince vc problem solvers that it really is only mb that matters), and discovery via random general interest intersection, like the old days when you wandered around the garden party open for conversation, and so on.
@Denny As you point out this is a complicated issue with so many points of reference. Iām sure it will be an ongoing debate for a time to come. People will either figure it out in how to make it work for them, and their needs, or not. Some will leave, of that Iām sure. But others will come too. Itās part of the ebb and flow of online spaces.
@manton I really hope you donāt implement micro-reactions. It would fundamentally change the nature of posting and interaction on micro.blog
We can already get that kind of thing elsewhwere.
@khurtwilliams I am sorry to hear you say that. I have enjoyed seeing your work and your comments on mine. I hope you can find a community.
@toddgrotenhuis @manton Iām seconding this big time. Iām here because the design decisions have fostered a decent and thoughtful community.