In 30 years of working on apps and the web, I’ve never had a falling out like this with another developer. It’s depressing. There are lessons here in why social media brings out the worst in us, amplifying disagreements. Things I’ve written a lot about! But seeing it happen live is something else.
@manton As you know, social media distorts everything. When I see reactions like those, my suspicion (based on experience) is that we are dealing with someone whose only interactions with "the other side" are with icons online. Any time spent with actually existing people in the real world very quickly complicates our perception of who "the other side" is or wants. Also, there's the fundamental spiritual problem of seeing anyone as "the other side." "I am a human and nothing that is human is alien to me."
@jabel @manton We're in a truly dangerous moment right now in the US, one that is especially dangerous for people who are not cis white men. Trans folk are under direct assault by Trump's new government and Musk is right there for all of it. Even worse, he's gone full-on-Nazi on his social media network. There should be no hedging on that. That is the context.
Vincent is on the front page of micro.blog as being on the micro.blog team who has written public posts which are being flagged by some as problematic and by others as transphobia. His recent Twitter posts are easily seen as cheerleading Musk who many now see as a Nazi.
The impression that you're creating in your communication is that you don't see the connections or that you see it but don't want to acknowledge or deal with it.
@pratik @manton @denny @jabel Agreed 100% with Pratik. You are avoiding the specific problem that Vincent has created in his public posts. There is now a perception of him and by extension, you because you're still employing him (as a contractor) and list him as a team member on the front page of micro.blog. And after reading the thread in question I agree with the sentiment shared by others that you're avoiding dealing with it.
@Denny @pratik Yeah, I want to add that I agree with this as well, @manton… Sure, Adam could've been more polite about it and stuff – but it's a critical time in the states for marginalised groups. That means that the importance of support from others, especially from people with influence (like yourself), has increased.
It's not a good look that you're dodging, and trying to make it about things like X, when that's not the central part of the criticism. I haven't been paying attention to Vincent's writing, so I can't comment on it directly. But, I'm sorry, you kinda have to deal with this, and either say that his stances are aligned with what Micro.blog stands for (and then explain why), or take action if not… (Again, don't know what he's written – but this what you're being asked to do.)
@Havn @Denny @pratik I hear what you're saying, but I think it would be wrong to contrast my opinion with anyone else's unless they wanted to blog about it. Vincent's feelings have been distorted in the public anyway. What I can do is make my own views clear. I've always wanted Micro.blog to be a welcoming, safe place. That mission was there on day one. I've been working on updating the community guidelines to be even more explicit, and there's a new highlight about LGBTQ+ people. Read it and send me feedback if it's off the mark.
@manton I'm not a well known member of the micro.blog community or anything so I don't think my voice carries much weight here, but I would like to add it nevertheless. I wasn't aware of Vincent's past comments before yesterday, but now that I am I agree with what others have said: There’s an issue here you need to deal with, and it does seem like you're avoiding it. You position micro.blog explicitly as a safer alternative to the big platforms, including for marginalized groups. Yet you seem to accept that someone who is prominently featured as a member of the team openly attacks such a group. That makes me question how committed you really are to the values expressed in your community guidelines, and I'm reevaluating my usage of micro.blog as a result (even though I really admire what you've built and enjoy using it alot).
I understand being hesitant to openly „shame“ someone or move towards „punishment“ immediately. But a clear public statement about whether or not you share the views that are being criticized here and what actions you intend to take to uphold the stated values of the platform doesn't seem like too much to ask. Revising the community notes is a good step, but doesn't address the concrete issues that are being raised here.
@Seadave @davidcelis I hope he'll post about it at some point. I try to avoid telling other people what they should post on their own blog. Personal blogs should be authentic, not forced.
(…) but I think it would be wrong to contrast my opinion with anyone else's unless they wanted to blog about it.
I don't think I understood this sentence… 👆🏻
Vincent's heart might absolutely be in the right place. But that doesn't change the fact that he has said things that are hurtful. Now, this can happen to anyone (myself included!) – especially if one simply doesn't know better. But what you want at that point is humbleness in understanding why the thing was hurtful. Not be annoyed at the people who you hurt. And especially when they're part of a marginalised group.
The highlight in the community guidelines seems like a good one, and is indeed a concrete action that holds some value. 👍🏻 Changes in the discover emoji is another. Stuff like this is some of what was asked of you.
If someone has been misunderstood, I strongly believe in giving people the chance to say what they really mean – and not imprison them in my impression of what they've said previously. Whether you want it to or not, products (like Micro.blog, but also Meta products) is linked both to its leaders, and the people working on it. And the reality is that enough people is questioning whether one of your associates thinks there should be room for transpeople. (Which might include having to type a pronoun every now and then.) Here's my recommendation to you: If this is a misunderstanding, you should, as a leader (and perhaps friend) advise him to clear up that misunderstanding. (And I think Vincent has built a bunch of cool stuff, and I'm a Tinylytics customer myself – so I want it to be a misunderstanding, heh.)
And if you don't truly get why this ordeal has hurt and disappointed some, I want you to really try to understand it.
@Havn Thanks. I have encouraged that. I expect it's hard to blog about it when the last time you were raked over the coals. At the end of the day, we are not Zuckerberg, with money and assistants. Others calling into question my integrity has hurt me deeply.
I have encouraged that.
Good! 👍🏻
I expect it's hard to blog about it when the last time you were raked over the coals.
Yeah, I totally get that… One idea here, could be to ask someone knowledgable about the subject to read a draft. "Hey, I'm trying to get this across. Am I hitting the mark?" The burden of teaching is greatly lessened with a humble and willing learner.
At the end of the day, we are not Zuckerberg, with money and assistants.
Hehe, yeah… And the fact that you're not is one of the reasons why I invest (both time and money) into this ecosystem!
Others calling into question my integrity has hurt me deeply.
Yeah, I get that… And even though I am challenging you a bit, I hope it comes across as coming from a place of love, and not a pile-on. 🙂
@Havn Yes, I'm always here for real discussions. I took what you said sincerely and not as an attack to score points.
@Denny @pratik @manton @denny @jabel I agree with Denny and Pratik. I just found out about all of this in the last hour. I'm so disappointed. This has been my haven these last few years, but I won't stay here if the my payments are contributing to Vincent's anti-LGBTQ crap. No. Just no. You know what we're going to be doing the next four years? Trying to keep our trans kid and trans friends ALIVE, and healthy, able to go on with their lives. That you employ someone like this and then can't come out and even say why, is shocking, and just so, SO disappointing. Man, I really believed in this place. And then muting Adam when he brings this up! Thank goodness he did.
@hollie Very sorry to hear this. I love having you on the platform and I hope you stay. The muting came after 24 hours and a dozen posts and emails trying to work with Adam. At the very end, I had to cut it off for my own sanity. I do wish I had handled it better. I have two more posts for tomorrow that attempt to tie all this together. If you stick around for that, let me know if you still feel this way.
@manton I'm not as tech savvy as the rest of the folks here, so I'll still be here tomorrow. It will take me awhile to figure out where to go. I don't want to leave (I freaking love it here, I have told everyone I know about this place), but for me to stay, I'll need you to come out and openly say that you unequivocally support LBGTQ folks, and openly address why you support employing a person who speaks against LGBTQ folks.
If you dodge either of those things, I need to go. This can't be a "let's assume he means well" type of thing for me. Our country has changed, our leadership has changed, I can't stay in a place where I don't really know whether or not the person I'm giving money to is really okay or not with the people I love, with my own kids. I need to know. You need to tell me.
I wasn't kidding when I said my goal in these next four years is keeping my queer loved ones alive. This administration is erasing them. Having an openly anti-LGBTQ person on staff and "one of the team" here is just not something to have an "opinion" about, it's something to take a stand on. I really hope that gets addressed tomorrow.
@hollie Thank you. No dodging, but sometimes it takes a while to address properly. I've already tried to take this to heart and updated a few things about our community guidelines today, including a new section about welcoming LGBTQ+ folks. I'll keep working on it. Having a safe space has been our goal since the very beginning.
@manton I admire your work and vision, and I love both the MB platform and community. I’ve been watching this whole thing unfold with dismay. Dismay because I think it could have been defused quickly by answering one question: given your stated support for the LGBTQ+ community, what are your standards for employing someone whose views are antithetical?
Imperfect as it is, social media is a big part of how communities exist these days. I think what’s happening now is the not-fun part of community, the holding accountable part. Can certainly feel like an attack. Maybe there have been some attacks thrown in with the quest for accountability. But that’s a side issue. Tone-policing is also a side issue. I’ve seen you graciously respond to less than kind statements several times, choosing to overlook an aggressive tone in favor of acknowledging and dealing with the main issue quickly. So I’m puzzled as to why you’re not doing that in this case. I’m hoping for your direct response to the main issue—what are your standards for employing someone whose views are antithetical to your support for the LGBTQ+ community?—and I’m hoping for it soon because the longer this discussion goes on without it, the more the question begins to answer itself and not in a good way.
(I wrote this a while ago and just now got to posting it, & @hollie has already covered the point better & clearer but I’ll post to echo the same.)
@Annie Thanks for the kind words about the vision, and for noticing that I usually try to respond graciously to criticism. I tried that with Adam until I realized the whole discussion had been a waste. For the main issue, I need to collect my thoughts in a longer post. I don't think Vincent's views are what they've been made out to be, though. An apology also goes a long way for me.
@timapple it disappeared from the German language in 1938, for te same reasons. There is no room for nuance in conversations like “do some people have the right to exist”. Those of us at the margins, or protecting people at the margins, need to know who the safe people are, where the safe places are.
@krisbrowne I hear you, but I think there still is room for nuance. I have nothing but love for all folks, as long as they don't harm me or my family. That does not mean I agree with them on everything. That is the nuance. I can like/love a person, but not agree with them on some issues. It doesn't make them or I a bad person.
