@macgenie @donmelton I was surprised it lasted in the main Safari UI as long as it did, considering. I remember early on in Firefox (either before 1.0 or just after), Ben Goodger (I think, but could have been someone else on the team) wanted to remove View Source from Firefox because it wasn’t something normal people used. There was a bunch of pushback from those of us in the Mozilla universe who had learned HTML/web development using View Source, so ultimately it stayed. (I always found that incident a bit funny because Camino was, especially then, supposed to be the more “non-geeky-user/non-developer” focused browser compared to Firefox, and we had absolutely no intention of removing View Source!)
@adiabatic @macgenie Keep in mind that when you use a DOM inspector, you're only looking at the current Web application state. To figure out how it got there (and where it might go), you’ll have to look at the source and a lot more. It can be vexing. Which is another reason I'm glad I no longer do it for a living. :)
@macgenie I wish I had been smart enough to actually take a Web design course before I was thrown into the deep end of browser development. That would have provided some much needed context. :)
One reason Safari has an obfuscated path to its developer tools is Steve (and the rest of the HI team). He didn't want them on by default. Which is why they're buried in a preference.
@donmelton I get that. And it's much fancier now than the simple display of the HTML without any tools or options. I’m just a sucker for the olden days. Even when I taught Dreamweaver or GoLive(!), I made the class learn the HTML first. Typing out the markup for that first web page and then opening it in the browser to see the finished product was very empowering. Like building your first app on an iPod Touch!
@smokey @macgenie The Safari user experience is something that I’m both proud and, at times, ashamed of. :) Now that I'm here and less likely to be misquoted by lazy journalists on Twitter, I may take to drunk posting some evening and tell a few stories. Who knows?
BTW, is Ben Goodger still at Google? I haven't seen or heard from him since I retired. And did you know that I was the one who hired him at Netscape?
@macgenie Yeah, I miss that easier approach to learning the Web. And that's brilliant to teach your Dreamweaver and GoLive students HTML first. I wish every teacher had done it that way! As a developer in the early days, I saw so many Frankensites created by well-meaning but ignorant folks. It was a pity. And a pain for us at times to maintain compatibility.
@donmelton @macgenie I learned pretty much everything I knew from viewing and copying HTML written by other people. In the past hour I have started testing out Linode and can already say that I would have benefitted greatly from learning these foundational aspects first, or at least soon after I first wrote code for the web years ago.
@donmelton Being exposed to this general area for the first time via managed servers and cPanel certainly didn't help; talk about the wrong impressions! Thankfully time and distance from that + reading and listening to indie-aligned people helped me get over my anxiety just for trying it. It's a shame most people don't get a good chance of being exposed in a way that is not so intimidating.
@AngeloStavrow @macgenie @donmelton That's certainly the hacker approach to learning! Which works for many of us. You just need to make sure you fill in the gaps later on. And I really like your idea of community support system to help do that. It also bridges the “class" gap between experts and novices.
@donmelton @AngeloStavrow @macgenie I think bridging the gap you reference is more important know than ever. I just responded to someone who linked to this piece about the current state of frontend dev, and its growing complexity. Noting that when I first started hacking around on the web in middle school I was able to
view source and get a good understanding of what was going on where, at least on the frontend. Now that so much more business logic is being piped to the client the the barrier to entry seems higher than it used to be. While this makes the web a more powerful platform, I wonder if this also makes building on the web less egalitarian?
@eli @AngeloStavrow @macgenie While the current trend of every-increasing Web development complexity certainly doesn't help anyone—-especially with lowering the barrier to entry—I think it's more the walled gardens of the Facebooks and click-greed of the Googles that’s making the Web less egalitarian.
@dgold @donmelton I love the idea of proper content ownership but when I'm looking at a stalled Apache install and the PuTTY user manual doesn't work... seriously, proper ownership is such a small reward as compared to getting things done. It shouldn't be this difficult to both create things and own them.
@simonmumbles @dgold Agreed. But you have to pick your battles in the level of ownership. For example, my site is static but I've never had to install Apache. I don't want that headache. I let my ISP handle that. All I need is shell and SSH access to a directory that their Apache instance will recognize. I still get to write my own .htaccess file but I don't worry about the maintenance of who reads that. For me, that's still independence.
@donmelton @donmelton I agree entirely. Would be good if there was a version of Wirecutter for making websites, hosting and all. Instead it seems that any and help is scattered everywhere, doesn't cover every probably set of variables, and gets muddled by information that is either outdated or wrong.
I wonder if this is where the big web companies found their opportunity, the missing piece of the puzzle for the average person to have a genuine alternative that does not involve all kinds of work -- as it is I am inclined to spend time and energy on it but even then there are only so many hours in the day, you know?
(sorry for the lengthy reply)
@simonmumbles No apologies necessary, sir! Yeah, we're all searching for the missing link and we're not even anthropologists.
@dgold Yep, I agree with both you and @donmelton. I'm cancelling my Linode account and going to look for somebody that will offer reasonably priced hosting, whether that's for a static site or WordPress. I'm just not in the position (time, energy, etc) to be handling things at the server level right now, heh.
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