@pratik Israel rejected a proposal to release all hostages (including Palestinian children held in Israel without charge), because Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire. Israel wants to carry on with their campaign of plausible genocide (which has also killed as many as 50 Israeli hostages).
@davidmarsden @denny so it's a tit for tat now when it comes to hostages? Does Hamas want a permanent ceasefire? I don't think that's in its interest, right? All said and done, if it leads to the ceasefire of the current hostilities then shouldn't releasing the Oct 7th hostages be considered the first step?
@pratik If by tit for tat you mean that Hamas took Israeli hostages in order to negotiate for the release of thousands of Palestinian "prisoners" (many of whom are children, and held without charge or conviction, some for years before October 7)? Hamas proposed a permanent ceasefire](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68225663.amp).
@davidmarsden That the Oct 7th attack was to capture Israeli hostages so they could negotiate for release of Palestinian prisoner in Israel. But not sure I can sympathize with the actions of Oct.7th as a means to do that. That said, I agree that not all "prisoners" in Israel are held justifiably.
@pratik For reference: Palestinian prisoners in Israel Goes along with the decades of land theft and apartheid that Israel has been engaging in.
@Denny @davidmarsden I understand and sympathize with the Palestinian cause. I just am asking if the Oct 7 attack and subsequent hostage-taking was aimed at freeing those prisoners. Also, I'm curious coz no one other than more-involved-in-the-cause people gave a shit about those prisoners before Oct. 7th. Finally, I also want to know if the killing of innocents on Oct. 7th is justified for this cause in freeing the prisoners.
@pratik My take would be that the October 7 attack by Hamas was about far, far more than freeing the prisoners. It was about the past 60+ years of Israel land theft, apartheid, war crimes, and general criminal behavior towards Palestinians.
The adults that are now known as Hamas spent their entire lives, begining at birth, watching their families be beaten, imprisoned, tortured and shot while their neighborhoods were bombed. Year upon year, decade after decade, contstant dehumanization.
@Denny @davidmarsden Ok. So the Oct 7 attack was vengeance for decades of injustice? Am I understanding this correctly as justification for the attack?
@pratik Stats on casualties here. The numbers of Palestinians killed and severely injured so far outnumbers that of Israelis. It's never been close to balanced:
"The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured"
That's just since 2008.
@Denny @davidmarsden I understand that and it's horrific. I repeat - was Oct 7th conducted to avenge those deaths?
I'm not in a position to label it or justify it. Nor am I Palestinian. So, you're asking the wrong person.
What Hamas did is correctly called a war crime. 100%.
But for decades, DECADES, Israel (and the United States as a partner) has been getting away with a scale of war crime that is far worse. See the stats on my other post. As well as land theft and apartheid with ZERO accountablity. Most Americans have been silent on that. The concern for justice in the US is one-sided and has been for decades.
@pratik @davidmarsden As has been said by many, war crimes are never the answer to war crimes. Never. War crimes are never justified.
That said, what has been done to the Palestinians and is being allowed to go on and on and on is intolerable. The US and the international community have not helped them. Even worse, the US has supported Israel and is complicit.
What are Palestinians to do in the face of land theft and slaughter? What does reconciliation and justice look like?
@Denny @davidmarsden Violence begets violence and then you lose the moral high ground when you justify your enemy's greater acts of violence with your smaller acts of violence. Coz then the battle lines are drawn and war is ugly.
I agree what happened to the Palestinians is not fair. What America should and should not do is something you have to bring up with your government via your local representative with the understanding that you can't reverse 75+ years of policy in one swell swoop. If enough Americans are with you, then probably you can change things.
I'm not a citizen yet. What should the Palestinians do? I have no idea. I come from the land of Gandhi yet we have had our moments of madness.
@pratik @Denny Hamas, in their own words, on the background and rationale (link to pdf in article). Palestinians tried peaceful resistance and were met with bullets and bombs, just the same. Any solution surely must involve talking to the democratically elected Hamas government, but the US and Israel will not allow it.
@pratik this recent recording of the representative from the League of Arab States gives an exceptionally good account of the historic facts of what has led Hamas to this point. By understanding the historic context of the current situation you will come to understand that it isn't 'tit for tat'. @davidmarsden @denny
@kimberley_rose @pratik @Denny This is also very good:
For almost 20 years Hamas has repeatedly offered Israel a peace process and effectively a two state solution, based on an Israeli military withdrawal to its 1967 borders, the establishment of a Palestinian mini-state on the West Bank and Gaza, with a ten year truce to negotiate other outstanding issues, such as the right of return for refugees.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable ~ JFK
Without justifying the atrocities of Oct 7, the structural reality of Israel makes violence inevitable. You have one group who has taken the land of another to create an ethno-state, leaving most of the original inhabitants with no rights. Until that basic structure changes, we can expect outbursts of violence from both sides -- for Palestinians as resistance, and perhaps also vengeance as you put it; for Israel, it is "security" (even though it is the structural violence of the situation that reproduces Israel's vulnerability)
@samjc @davidmarsden @kimberley_rose @pratik Well said and agreed. I would add, I think it's one thing to read your description or to read words like apartheid. It's another thing entirely to watch video of violent settlers on the West Bank in the process of vandalizing, destroying or taking homes, destroying olive groves or perpetrating violence of various kinds on Palestinians. Or to watch video of Israeli soldiers at checkpoints and road blocks as they dehumanize Palestinians who are just trying to go about normal day activities of life.
I can't begin to comprehend what it must be like to live there.
@Denny @davidmarsden @kimberley_rose Apologies it took me a while to get back to this discussion. It seems like the natural progression of your arguments is that, the ends justify the means (since this discussion is now referring to events before Oct 7th) If those means include using violence as a response, then we may start to lose the right to complain (or even the moral high ground) if the so-called oppressors increase their violence. Kevin Drum asks an important question and I would love to hear answers to that Q.
@pratik I haven't yet checked out the link, but I will do so after I post this. Why do qualify oppressors with "so-called"?
Also, I think you have it backwards in your framing of violence here. Anybody that looks at the statistics on violence for the past 40 years can plainly see the vast difference in violence on the two sides in the history of a very one-sided conflict. To be clear it has been the Israeli side that has engaged in war crimes and land theft for decades.
Again, I will say that war crimes are never justified on either side and Hamas has been rightly condemned for war crimes. And yet Israel has been given a free pass for decades, why the disparity? The disparity seems to say that war crimes matter, but only when one side commits them.
So when you refer to one side losing the right to complain, it sounds a bit weird to me. It almost seems like you're justifying Israel's violence.
@Denny Not justifying Israel's violence but asking why Hamas' violence is justified for Israel. Because if we accept violence is fine as a response, then I have no comment to offer. I think plenty of people are calling out Israel for its violence unless you mean someone specific. But that holds for Hamas as well. And yes, check out the link first because I'm looking for tangible solutions in the future.
@Denny @pratik @samjc @davidmarsden @kimberley_rose Biden could start by upholding the "rules based international order" we hear about so often. He could stop funding Israel all together, or at least stop sending Israel more arms while they are committing plausible genocide. He could stop vetoing United Nations votes for a ceasefire. Just a couple of ideas off the top of my head.
In international law, the Palestinian people do have the legal right armed resistance against the Israeli occupation of their land. In international law, a state which occupies another does not have the legal right to self-defence. Of course, that doesn't mean Israel had no right to protect its citizens on October 7th. But what it has done since has gone way beyond self-defence.
@davidmarsden @Denny @samjc @kimberley_rose
He could stop funding Israel altogether, or at least stop sending Israel more arms while they are committing plausible genocide.
That's Congress' job. They have been doing great at holding up Ukraine's funding. I don't know if you also support that, but it's been a great political tactic at achieving that aim.
He could stop vetoing United Nations votes for a ceasefire.
We talked about this. The ceasefire resolution that needs U.S. support hinges on the release of the Israeli hostages taken on Oct.7th. That said, this is the draft deal that's currently being negotiated between Israel and Hamas, with Egypt, Qatar, and the U.S. involved. Are you in favor of this?
@pratik @davidmarsden @Denny @samjc @kimberley_rose Biden hasn't bypassed Congress?
For what it's worth, I'm in favour of a permanent ceasefire and an end to the illegal Israeli occupation.
covering a $147.5 million sale for equipment, including fuses, charges and primers, that is needed to make the 155 mm shells that Israel has already purchased function.
I wonder how a Republican-led bill to provide $17.6 billion failed.
I don't know what you mean by a permanent ceasefire. Didn't that exist before Oct.7th?
@pratik @davidmarsden @samjc @kimberley_rose Agreed with both of David's responses. However you want to frame it, the point is, Biden and Congress should withdraw support for Israel immediately. It's been breaking the law since far before October 7.
Just adding that I'm also in favor of a permanent ceasefire and end to Israel's illegal operation. The temporary ceasefire would be a step in the right direction but should be permanent. From what I've gathered in recent weeks the ceasefire you're referring to is to be temporary and Israel's leadership has made it clear by their actions (and statements) thus far that they intend to continue violating international law as soon as any temporary ceasefire expires.
@pratik @davidmarsden @samjc @kimberley_rose
I don't know what you mean by a permanent ceasefire. Didn't that exist before Oct.7th?
To answer that I'll refer you to the statements made in this thread regarding the past several decades of Israel's repeated violation of international law. Your suggestion assumes that Israel has been peaceful and clearly demonstrates your bias in favor of Israel.
It should not have to be repeatedly pointed out to you the role Israel and the United States have played in creating the current situation.
I'll say it again: Decades of land theft, unlawful imprisonment, apartheid and overwhelming, one sided violence.
@Denny @pratik @davidmarsden @samjc @kimberley_rose The Israeli occupation of Palestine is illegal in international law, and an ongoing violent action for 75 years. So, no there wasn't a permanent ceasefire before Oct 7th. I already mentioned it, but Palestinians have tried peaceful resistance and been met with the same overwhelming Israeli violence from bullets and bombs funded and provided in the main by the US.
@davidmarsden @Denny So basically, Biden has to solve the Israel-Gaza crisis that has been going on for 75 years before November and the issue that several before him have failed to solve? I don't think this has been a serious discussion so I'm going to bow out. Good luck in your efforts. I'm going to focus my attention and outrage on preserving democracy in the country I'm living in now.
@pratik @davidmarsden I doubt anyone expects him to solve a 75 year old problem, no. But he would have a great deal of national and international support if he and Congress took the step of defusing the current crisis by immediately halting US support of Israel and calling for a ceasefire.
