Can someone please make a 1Password clone that isn’t a pile of garbage? Pretty please?

This message brought to you by the iPad Safari Extension refusing to fill credentials.

@caseyliss Depending on your needs and preferences, iCloud Keychain has gotten pretty good.

@caseyliss Might I recommend BitWarden? https://bitwarden.com/download/

@caseyliss Bitwarden has been really good for me since the LastPass debacle

@caseyliss when this type of stuff has happened to me in the past I generally had to - in order of trouble shooting -
1. Force close safari and try again
2. Restart the device and try again
3. Disable the extension; restart the device; re-enable the extension and try again.

One of those would usually do it.

@caseyliss Strongbox. It’s a real Mac app and they let you host the database wherever you want. I host on iCloud Drive. It’s fine.

@caseyliss it certainly isn't Keeper

@caseyliss I ran off to iCloud Keychain while keeping my 1Password export in Keepass (for the things Apple doesn’t support in it). Had to open it maybe twice since January. I’ve let my 1Password sub expire and I’m not even thinking about coming back.

@caseyliss I've been having issues for months. Support suggested a few things and since then it's been working albeit without TouchID.

Had to disable “Share across devices” within Extension Settings. Then within the 1Password Extension Settings (right click the 1Password Icon > Settings) turn off "Integrate this extension with the 1Password desktop app”.

Hopefully they figure it out or I’m sure a bunch of folks will be jumping ship.

@caseyliss iCloud Keychain got really good if you can tolerate it residing in the Settings app. And of course locked notes in Notes to fill in the gaps.

@stg @caseyliss +1 strongbox from a "mac assed mac app" perspective, but the lack of built in family sharing may be a deal breaker for casey.

@caseyliss Whenver these issues are (rightfully) brought up, a 1PW employee will sooner or later show up and tell you they’re working on a fix. Which I’m sure they are, but this has been going on for so long that they’ve basically lost all of my goodwill.

@caseyliss Glad to know it's not just me. Getting very close to just giving up and using Apple's password sync.

@jsnell @caseyliss I'm using iCloud Keychain for like 95% of things these days. 1Password is mainly where secure notes and those things that don't fit in iCloud Keychain (shell account passwords) go.

@jsnell @caseyliss I find that 1Password extension is very sensitive to whether 1P itself has been unlocked yet And this is very, very sensitive on iPad.

@caseyliss Once, 1Password "just worked" for me. Today I'd say it _doesn't_ work more often than not - I press the shortcut to open the mini window and it doesn't show up. Or it shows up but it's just a never-ending spinner. Or it shows up and clicking the account doesn't appear to do anything. Or clicking the account dismisses the window, but doesn't actually fill in the fields on the webpage.
I can't think of another product that was once so good that has fallen so far.

@caseyliss the ironic thing here is, with their old pre-“subscription needed” system, I very rarely had an issue but worse case situation I knew I could own a local html file to gain local access to my data. Since they went the subscription model, everything breaks, they removed the local access html option (to force you to subscribe), and the company feels toxic to users.

@jsnell @caseyliss my partner is extremely unhappy with 1P and will be switching to Apple’s built-in version soon.

@caseyliss I was literally just thinking of you yesterday, when I, once again, added a new login to 1PW, and my wife used the new login immediately from her MBA, and I realized how much I LOVE 1PW and how rock solid it's been for me -- across 3 Macs and 2 iPhones (between missus & me).

(this is NOT to negate your experience or tell you you're holding it wrong. I believe you! It's just so weird for people to have such differing experiences -- I freaking love the product. Best tool on my Mac!)

@jsnell @caseyliss Well I’d love to just use Apple‘s iCloud keychain entirely. I just wanna be able to store codes and some other data formats in there too

@caseyliss Hi Casey, I see you’re having issues with 1Password. Before I can help, can you provide me with your Platinum Elite Enterprise™ (PEE) ID?

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss Yep.

I’ve been off of 1Password for a couple of years now and, honestly, it has been fine.

There are still some things I’d like Apple to do with it, but for the 90% use case it works great.

1Password wanted the enterprise ecosystem. I guess they’ve got it, but they’ve no longer got me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@jakob41 @jsnell @caseyliss That’s my main thing.

I have a fair number of passwords for which there is no web site to associate them with. Apple’s password system doesn’t really seem geared for that.

A bit broader functionality and organizational improvements and they could easily eat 1Password’s lunch (with non-enterprise users, at least).

@caseyliss

Oh yea, storing backup 2FA codes. The notes section in 1Password is perfect for that.

But not a thing in Keychain. Would have to store it in a locked apple note? Not clearly tied to the URL, rather have to search down the list to find one.

@jsnell @caseyliss i had been a 1password user for years. I made the switch last year and it’s totally fine.

@caseyliss done! iCloud Keychain.

@jeff @jsnell @caseyliss Yeah well I do use Keychain Access on the Mac that allows you to store secret notes. I won’t pay a monthly subscription fee just to save like 10 additional secret notes. It’s just annoying you can’t access the notes from your Mac’s keychain even when they’re stored on the iCloud

@xarph @stg Can confirm

@jsnell If I could find an answer that also had family sharing, I would jump ship immediately.

@caseyliss @jsnell It supports Groups, which is even more flexible: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/share-passwords-or-passkeys-mchlc00a3602/mac

@caseyliss @jsnell Apple’s passwords has had family sharing since September.

@caseyliss @jsnell may I suggest you try Secrets by my friend @pfandrade ? https://secrets.app

@jsnell @caseyliss As for secure notes, the default Notes app allows you to secure any note.

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss
I’ve been using Minimalist for the last few years and it’s everything good that 1Password isn’t.
https://minimalistpassword.com/

@leoncowle Sync has been rock-solid.

It’s EVERY FUCKING THING AROUND IT that ain’t

@caseyliss Apple's solution has family sharing (for a while now)?

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss the thing that has been holding me back is more about getting family moved over than anything else. Also the lack of an app for when you need to access passwords manually.

@ismh86 @jsnell wtaf when did this happen

@PeterGracar @jsnell wat

@leoncowle wat

@caseyliss I wonder if it's HOW we use it that differs. I never use the Quick Access popup. I only use it via browser extension on Safari and Chrome (macOS) and Safari (and copy & paste from the app) on iOS. And none of them ever give me any issues whatsoever. (I'm not complaining, long may my unicorn luck continue…)

@caseyliss bitwarden?

@miguelcabeca @caseyliss @jsnell thanks for the shoutout! If you have any questions about Secrets, let me know 😉.

@caseyliss You mean that you as a customer don’t find so much more value from the notion it’s easier for the company to use a cross platform framework at the expense of its actual reliability and usefulness to you? See their side (and then for some reason weigh it more heavily than your own interests)

@caseyliss @jsnell I’d like to inform you that Apple has a whole Family section for passwords, works great

@caseyliss a year ago

@ismh86 where was my memo

@ismh86 @caseyliss I share passwords in Apple keychain with my mom that would never happen with one password.

@caseyliss if they would write a native Mac and iOS app instead of the web clones it might all work better

@caseyliss not that this is an excuse but I’ve had much better luck using the app’s autofill rather than the browser extension’s. It works by simulating typing and seems way more reliable.

@caseyliss @ismh86 We talked about it on the show!

@caseyliss @ismh86 counting down the seconds until Underscore produces receipts of you talking about it on ATP.

@caseyliss @jsnell I, weirdly, use both. I periodically export from 1Password on Mac and import it into the iCloud Keychain, so I can let it auto-fill on iOS.

@jsnell @caseyliss I switched a while back and honestly have not looked back.

@core_ thank you! This looks like it could be exactly what I wanted to punt 1P!

@caseyliss @jsnell I’ve been moving my passwords from @1password to @protonprivacy, and I am happy with their service thus far.

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 This is so @caseyliss :D

@siracusa @caseyliss I've come to realize that people like John (love you John!) will never be able to fully understand how people like me and Casey stumble through life, unable to remember what we had for breakfast. 😂 (I envy those that posess that mythical thing called “memory”).

@jon_alper It’s an indie product and not enough people know about it. I’m surprised how many people still put up with 1Password, but Minimalist is hard to find on the App Store, if you don’t know its exact name. The Apple Store algorithm doesn’t put it in the search results for “password manager”.

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 Evergreen.

@caseyliss @ismh86 Left it on the dropship before landing on LV-426?

@caseyliss and of course I can't read, you wrote "iPad" where there is no app. My comments only apply to the Mac. Sorry!

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 Someone needs the Lifestream. 😆

@siracusa @caseyliss Casey couldn’t remember, you and Marco wouldn’t let him

(cause it was accidental…)

@caseyliss is this not an option? Works all the time both on iPad and iPhone for me.

@caseyliss not what you asked for: I replaced 1Password with iCloud Keychain and an encrypted Apple Note and have not regretted it. 300+ passwords and software keys.

@ismh86 @caseyliss @jsnell It is pretty powerful too. I have several setup. The best one being the group that I have with my family and all my extended family. Everyone just drops any streaming sub passwords they have in there.
I would have never been able to get the buy in to do something like that when I used 1password.

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss My only gripe is the lack of support for Browsers on Linux… and only full support on Edge on windows. Otherwise, iCloud Keychain works well enough.

@siracusa @ismh86 but that was before yesterday

@leoncowle @siracusa omfg this

@caseyliss interestingly, I haven’t had any issues using autofill with Firefox

@caseyliss @jsnell Apple iCloud Keychain and shared password groups.

@caseyliss I know you totally didn’t ask—but as someone who has had his own 1Password issues and swapped my family to iCloud Keychain—we wound up switching back to 1Password 😬

It works fine! But iCloud Keychain is currently very limited and my two biggest issues were:

- Data entry feels clumsy compared to 1P
- Adding multiple URLs for a single password entry was very difficult

YMMV though! I’m sure WWDC will include improvements!

@KtoBB8 lol, I’m afraid to switch my mom to something else, she almost knows how to use 1Password 5 years later.

@caseyliss @siracusa @ismh86 every moment of this exchange was a delight

@caseyliss I found uninstalling the extension and just filling from the Cmd-\ shortcut improved my life markedly with 1Pass 8. I do still occasionally have to hit “Shift” to force the autofill to be the selected option but it’s waaaay better than the extension.

@caseyliss you can still auto fill if you disable the Safari extension, as it is the same autofill used everywhere else on the iPad be it another browser or any app such as your bank app.

@aaronbushnell @caseyliss When I recently dabbled with keychain for managing/sharing passwords with my family, this was my experience, too. Maybe if Apple creates a dedicated app, it would be better, but for now I just continue stumbling along with 1P.

Another problem I have is that I don't just need sharing, I also need Windows support, but I don't expect Apple to prioritize that at all.

@caseyliss Bitwarden really is pretty great. They're also working on some design changes, I believe, if you've bounced because of that in the past.

@caseyliss @siracusa @ismh86 Living that goldfish life 😄

@jeff @dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss Same, plus easily sharing passwords with my has been awesome.

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86

@tvaziri @siracusa @ismh86 it me!

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 we also talked about it on the rebound

@caseyliss I've tried LastPass, 1Password, and Bit Warden. Bit Warden has been my favorite over the last several years.

@RobIssler @caseyliss

@caseyliss Bitwarden.

@caseyliss @ismh86 It was in the Alien credits.

@jsnell @caseyliss it’s not just you. Especially if you adopt Profiles you will be in limbo fill hell.

@caseyliss @ismh86 Sorry, sitting in the Drafts folder. Not sure how that happened.

@core_ Got home and read the site, downloaded, fiddled and Holy $&@%! It’s all the things! They made ALL the sane choices. They didn’t do something dumb and re-invent things there are already available from the OS. I mean… it’s so good that despite being a Bruins fan I can look past them being Canadian. 😜 (kidding around aside, I’m going to try migrating this weekend.)

@core_ @dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss Jason, Dan, Casey… I’d never heard of this until Henning (who I don’t know) replied. You‘ve got to go look at https://apps.apple.com/us/app/minimalist-password-manager/id1523397704 It’s so damned POLITE (looks very clean on iOS (will test elsewhere asap) uses native APIs, tells you what the path to its data file… imports from other tools…. At first blush this is THE fix for those lamenting the enshitification of 1Password. (I have no affiliation)

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss do you open Passwords with a shortcut?

@caseyliss Strongbox. The added bonus is because it’s a Keepass database, you can open it up in other supported apps on other platforms. For example, on Windows KeepassXC opens my same database and updates it back to iCloud.

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 Ah-ha, my transcript search engine finally pays dividends! https://marcoshuerta.com/dash/atp_search/?sort=3&page_num=1&search=Icloud+password+groups&range_begin=1&range_end=584

@caseyliss is this 1PW7 or 8?
I've started trying 1PW8 on macOS and don't see too many issues so far - but it is scary. I've always seen certain websites that won't autofill, and 1PW7 fairly often doesn't store the password. But I pre-save the password as I set up the account.

@MrRooni and team might want to wade through this?

@chockenberry @caseyliss @ismh86 Aliens

@yertle @caseyliss @ismh86 I’ve only seen it once.

@chockenberry @caseyliss @ismh86 🙄

@jsnell @caseyliss I suppose that you are on version 8. I’ve stayed on version 7 (Mac and iOS/iPadOS) and I am happy I did.

@caseyliss notepad.exe is much better than 1Password imo, and surface pros are relatively small and light and can run notepad for hours… 🙂

I’ve been moving to secrets, syncs across Apple devices, seems to support safari extensions (I don’t use so can’t comment). I’d love to move my team away from 1Password (14 of us) but secrets doesn’t support that so still need 1Password for sharing between the team at the moment

@caseyliss is it just me who is having a good experience with 1Password?

@siracusa @caseyliss @ismh86 I would have switched to keychain already but I have to use a windows PC for work so need something that’s Windows compatible. If Apple includes keychain as part of their windows tools then I’ll switch.

@caseyliss Imagine saying this 4 years ago

@caseyliss Minimalist is awesome > native w iCloud sync. https://apps.apple.com/au/app/minimalist-password-manager/id1523397704

@caseyliss I suggest @1password team to print each of these comments and brainstorm about the reasons why people want to switch. I’m a more than 10 year user of 1p. It was a masterpiece of software. For the latest 2-3 years it has become worst with each release, specially with browser extensions. We don’t need new features, just having the basic ones working 100%

@caseyliss I have been very happy with Bitwarden. I am using it on iOS and macOS.

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss What worries me is if I get locked out of my Apple ID account, then I can no longer access my passwords. While getting locked out of that account is rare, it’s still putting too many eggs in one basket.

@dmoren You’re absolutely right that you can’t store shell account creds themselves - but you can store SSH key pass phrases. I keep those in Keychain and then my private keys can unlock properly with no passwords involved. Takes a little config, but it’s super nice.

@caseyliss I'm not sure if it will work for your situation, but as you mentioned iPad…

If you are in the Apple ecosystem generally, the built in password keeping stuff works really well for me. It's not absolutely perfect, but it's mostly fine and "just works".

I used to use LastPass but I just don't need it any more and haven't bothered for a couple of years.

@caseyliss I installed Bitwarden last night, got fed up of 1Password not working right. It’s not as good in many way but it’s free to start and it actually works.

@pauldl Does that work with autofill somehow? Or is it just using the same private key mechanism as SSH?

@mcelhearn @jsnell @caseyliss I guess, but I already have so many eggs in that basket that if I get locked out of my Apple ID, I’m basically fucked anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@caseyliss I just renewed, but only because I do the family sharing thing and my parents are used to 1Password. This will likely be the last year I use it.

@caseyliss just another reason why I hope and pray Apple gives us true desktop class browsing on the iPad, and allows us to use desktop-class Chrome with all the Chrome extensions we want.

There’s a lot of talk about how people just want macOS on their iPad, but I think upgrading the web browser alone would make a massive difference.

@caseyliss I miss the native Mac app

@dmoren @jsnell @caseyliss True. I thought about hosting my email domain there, but I realized that it’s better to spread things around. It would be bad enough to not be able to access passwords, even if iCloud is just down, but if I couldn’t get email at all that would be too problematic.

@caseyliss @siracusa @ismh86 please please please give me a standalone passwords app at wwdc

@pauldl I realized in retrospect that I think I'd already set this up a long time ago. The real issue is that I want password autofill for sudo access on remote machines. 😬

@dmoren I know it’s a flag that you add to your ~/.ssh/config file - the first time it will then ask if it can access keychain, and after that it will just handle it.

@dmoren Ah - sure! For that you could use the /etc/sudoers file on the server and whitelist specific commands to be sudo-capable without a password. It’s finicky, but if you have specific commands that you sudo frequently, it can be a big timesaver.

https://linuxhandbook.com/sudo-without-password/

soooooo freaking scared to update apps now.

@caseyliss @jsnell Bitwarden (of Vaultwarden if you want to self host). Switching is easy; export, import, happy.

@caseyliss Enpass? Mac, Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, Cloud sync through any service, direct WiFi Sync, Browser Autofill, subscription or lifetime purchase pricing, passkeys support.

@caseyliss Have you not tried Secrets yet? It's clearly the way forward for most personal 1Password users.

It has great platform feature adoption such as Apple Watch unlock. Haven't missed 1Password one bit since I switched.

@caseyliss I am sorry, it is pretty painful for everyone.

The experience would be much better if Apple didn’t keep rejecting our updates for made-up reasons (lack of IAP was the last one).

@roustem I hear you, and I sympathize with you, and I know that this one thing is beyond your control.

But I am so angry because 1P used to be the pinnacle of not just great but **excellent** indie apps. And now, it is becoming more frustrating to use with each passing release.

I think ultimately I need to just get over the fact that 1P used to be written for me, and now it isn’t. And I guess this is ultimately my issue to get over.

I just miss what used to be. 💔

@caseyliss @roustem but it’s a lot cheaper for them to churn windows version for enterprise, so what right do we personal Mac user have…

Maybe it’s smart business and they foresaw apple eating their lunch, but 1p move to non native just make their loss of the home Mac market faster.

@caseyliss I appreciate all the feedback and I understand that experience could be different for everyone. Over 10 million people are using it every day.

From my perspective, I see many improvements in the current app. I would never trade it for any past version of 1Password. I’d love for us to figure out how to make it work for you.

@ismh86 @caseyliss @jsnell One caveat being that, if you use Windows at all, AFAIK the Windows iCloud app still doesn’t support groups, and the passwords in your groups will just not be there.

@bradj they do include it, but it is bad. If nothing else, it still does not support groups as of the last time I checked, which was a month or two ago.

@roustem for me, it’s pretty straightforward:

• 1P8 serves you, not me. I understand it enables new features but it does so by sacrificing reliability and platform consistency. 👎🏻

• The extensions are very unreliable and LOVE to steal keyboard focus. 👎🏻

• Make me feel like y’all actually are hearing the feedback that little people are giving you. When I say “this thing I *adored* and *evangelized* sucks now”, and you say “10M people use it daily”, I hear “we don’t care about you anymore”

@caseyliss This is the definition of fair feedback! Hope to see an answer from @roustem on this.

@caseyliss I switched from 1Password to a combination of Keychain and Strongbox, a “keypass” format password manager. I use Keychain for my passwords and Strongbox for my non-password secrets. But you could definitely do Strongbox for everything. I can’t speak to their form-fill plugin, but the app itself is solid. Plus, with migrating to the keepass format, there’s no vendor lock-in. If Strongbox goes to hell like 1Password did I can just find another keepass app.

@caseyliss @roustem 1P8 serves me, not just AgileBits.

The platform they use now allows them to have a consistent experience on different platforms. Which is important to me. The extensions have worked fine for me on both Mac and Windows.

@caseyliss @roustem

That second point is so frustrating. A good example is when i have an input focused and hit the down arrow why does 1p think I'm talking to it instead of trying to select one of the past entries like emails I've put into that input? I assure you I never am and never will mean down/up arrow is 1p time.

@roustem @caseyliss I have regular problems with the Vivaldi extension not filling either. There is some sort of JavaScript error for those who know about the Developer Console, but the user experience is that the password appears to be accepted and then… the modal disappears and 1Password stays locked. No user-visible explanation. And I’m supposed to let this gatekeep logging into basically everything?

There should at least be a clear error message.

@caseyliss while I don’t have any problems with 1Passwords, your post prompted me to look around and I find Strongbox to be a very strong contender. I’m on the 90 day (!) trial right now and am likely going with a lifetime license. A lifetime license that gives me family sharing and costs what 1Password charges me per year.

@roustem @caseyliss I love several new features in 1P8 and I trust AgileBits in a way that is very hard for me to move away from. But the user experience pisses me off regularly. I used to be delighted and now I’m angry. You are one trust incident away from losing everyone, but I continue to hope you have that covered. When I provide feedback, all I hear is how proud everyone is of 1P8. I don’t see how that can possibly be warranted. I’m loyal to the product, but I couldn’t recommend it. And most of the people I respect say I should drop it.

@ctt Yes, I’m using the latest version 4 of Secrets. It was totally rewritten from the previous version. I’ve had no issue with it. Syncing has worked flawlessly.

@caseyliss @roustem Something you can try is disabling the Safari extension. You might not need it:

1. On iOS/iPadOS you can set 1Password as the system autofill provider and rely on that.
2. On macOS, you can use Command-\ to fill. This completely bypasses the Safari extension (and works in apps and system prompts!)

Together these will give you a “classic” 1Password experience with a UX very similar to iCloud keychain.

@joelmeador @caseyliss @roustem 1Password does not know when the browser is offering you a choice of emails (or vice versa). You have some options to resolve this conflict between the two autofill UIs:

1. Disable the browser’s autofill suggestions and use 1Password for email filling. 😊
2. Disable on-page suggestions in the 1Password extension and fill from the toolbar icon or with the keyboard shortcut.

If you can think of other ways we can help here we’d be happy to take a look.

@caseyliss @roustem I wont defend the Safari extension (hope my suggestions in the other comment help) but the SSH agent/git commit signing has your name on it, Casey. It’s light years ahead of what anyone else is doing on the Mac and you should definitely try it out. 😁

@mitchchn this happens even when 1password is not unlocked, which seems like an opportune time for it to leave me alone.

@joelmeador pressing down is supported when locked precisely so that you can unlock the extension with Touch ID and access the autofill menu without needing to use your mouse.

There is an extension setting to disable the 1Password icon/menu in fields, which I recommend trying if you really want the extension to stay out of your way until you trigger it.

@caseyliss https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/6/24173202/apple-password-manager-rumor-1password-lastpass

@caseyliss 👋 What features are you looking for the most? Let us know if you get a chance to check out Proton Pass: https://proton.me/pass

We're here to help if you have any questions!

@caseyliss I’m here with you, Casey. What I wouldn’t give for a Mac-assed Mac app with family plans and sharing that doesn’t just randomly stop working until restarting a browser or the whole machine.

@roustem @caseyliss if you have so many users you surely make enough money to maintain a native Mac app.

@caseyliss Apple to the rescue

@case2tv gonna see how Passwords.app looks once it’s out