I’ve decided to leave Micro.blog for now. I wrote up a very long post about why I’m leaving, in case you’re interested. I’ll be here to chat about it for a while, if anyone would like to.

@belle A really thoughtful post with some tough questions. I’m not sure I agree with you entirely (manton can make money from self-hosted who cross post) but there were moments when I started disagreeing and moved to probably agreeing. The curation and diversity issue is a really valid point. I bet it would be frustrating as an Android users and I imagine there are other issues of diversity I wouldn't even notice due to my privilege position. Thank you for writing it.

@ChrisJWilson True about cross-posting, though I've specifically heard/seen (can't find it again, so not sure if podcast or blog post) Manton say, please support the site with a hosted blog. So I'm guessing that's the way he expects to make money. It also costs more, so less need for scale to make it work. But you're right that it's not the only option, for sure.

@ChrisJWilson And thanks for the thoughtful response! To be honest, I was quite worried about posting this, as I felt like criticism wouldn't be welcomed and I might end up in a pile-on from those who don't want to hear a bad word against Micro.blog. It's nice to be able to discuss these kind of ideas politely and figure out options together, rather than simply arguing.

@belle Thank you. I try to understand first and explore an idea but often fail. I didn’t really want to hear criticism but you raised some valid points and that's vital to hear. I hope no one does dog pile you even if they completely disagree with your points. (p.s. I wouldn't be surprised if a hosted account is the only way to support MB properly. I guess you could get an MB hosting account to support but then use a self-hosted site ¯_(ツ)_/¯ ) Anyway now I have to follow you some other way 😁

@ChrisJWilson I really appreciate that! I definitely understand about not wanting to hear criticism. Being someone who makes stuff myself, I really know the pain of having people say negative stuff about your work & feeling like they miss or dismiss all the good parts. So I really appreciate that you were able to see some validity in what I said, even if you didn't agree (or want to) with all of it :) I'm undecided where I'll end up next, but my blog is always at blog.bellebcooper.com :)

@ChrisJWilson Good point about the support model, too. I'm sure you could pay without using the hosted blog, and just treat it as a fee to keep the service going. Wonder if anyone does/will do that.

@belle Thanks for the well thought out and very detailed post. I can definitely understand the validity of points even if I can’t see it from my view point in regard to Android and diversity. I think there is a lot more that @manton can do in regards to GitHub issues and organizing priorities and feedback through that avenue. I would be extremely frustrated if I were in your shoes. At the same time, the community of Micro.blog and my faith in @manton’s goals is enough to keep me around despite temporary hiccups or issues because I believe in his vision and I think in another year or two a lot of issues or growing pains that we see now will look completely different. The one thing I will say I don’t agree with is how you mentioned you think @manton’s beliefs and business model don’t match up. I think his intentions are pure and that, as I mentioned in another thread, content ownership is more about data portability than self-hosting and @manton has gone out of his way to make data portability incredibly easy compared to any other service out there.

@EddieHinkle ... and I don't know why I ended up putting all of those @-mentions... after the first one I probably should have just put his name. Oops!

@belle That was my initial plan, but then I just ended up using the Manton-hosted site because I had it.

@belle Before I started hosting my Microcast on Micro.blog I did pay for a hosted blog in order to support the service while being self-hosted. So while it may not be a super popular option, I do believe there is a group of us that do that.

@ChrisJWilson Oh, interesting! Fair to use it since it's so easy and smooth. I've had a lot of hassles getting things to work right between my own blog and Micro.blog but the hosted blog is a lot easier to get going.

@EddieHinkle Cool, that's interesting to know. I wonder if that will become more popular in time.

@belle I can imagine, I've set up a second feed and there are a few sticking points. By the way, your point about documentation is a really good one and one I had no idea about. Working for a tech company I know how important it is too keep it up to date and simple. I also know the work it takes to make. Not developing for MB I had no idea that this was the case.

@ChrisJWilson It's definitely one of those things you wouldn't realise if you didn't need to use it! You're right about the effort required. Good docs take a lot of time and effort, but I love really good docs as a dev :)

@belle Interesting. While I understand your point of view on "owning you content", and I have actually thought about this myself, I have come to a different conclusion. To me, "owning your content" means owning the actual content and the URLs. I don't feel that I actually need to run/control the servers/software myself as long as I can easily move content to another platform. I have three wordpress instances in addition to micro.blog and in my mind (and previous experiences) it's much easier to move away from micro.blog than from WordPress - to be honest I would like to move one or two of these instances from WP to micro.blog but it's a bit too much money for me. As for APIs etc I can't say much since I haven't looked at them, but I can understand the frustration (and I'm an iOS person ... 😐). Don't get me wrong, I have several micro.blog improvements that I would like to see, but at the moment micro.blog is the best compromise for me compared to running WordPress for everything or something like Hugo/Jekyll.

@belle i just bookmarked your blog. keep up the good work. go tigers. :)

@belle Interesting & I agree with a lot of what you say (this year I switched to iOS only, having been Android forever). I will say that this place did get me interested in the Indieweb, for which I'm grateful. I'll never run my own server, so paying for hosting is as close as I'll get to "owning" my content. In case you might be interested, my main place to hang out is 10 centuries, which also hosts some of my other blogs. In the next version Jason is espousing Indieweb principles and is planning to release a version of the code for self-hosting, which is pretty cool. I like his values very much. Oh & I'll miss you. 😒

@jemostrom I'm glad it's working for you! I also thought it was the best compromise until recently, so I definitely understand that point of view.

@tones Hey, thanks! Maybe next year, right? 😁👌

@vanessa Hey, thanks! I've just been checking out 10 Centuries. Are the blogs integrated with the social part at all or is it all separate? I couldn't really work that out. I think I'll miss how blogging is so at home here most, since most other social networks focus on short posts only.

@belle Yeah, different priorities etc. In an ideal world I would like to run my sites as a single static site but I haven't had the time (= enough motivation) to set it up. I have a long time plan for a Hugo site but I always get so depressed when I get into the CSS/JavaScript side. But every time I see a post like yours I start thinking about it again ... instead of doing the work I should do 😜 so apparently I'm finding it important. (not the mention, writing the whole CMS myself so I get what I really want)

@jemostrom I get that! I've been really incremental in setting up and adjusting my own static site and other stuff like that. It can be hard work!

@belle I think that at the moment the social part is separate. If you have a blog hosted on 10C then you have the option of posting a link on your social feed. However, in the next version the social side will be based on rss feeds & webmentions etc, so effectively your social feed is your blog site, rather like here. You can always join & ask Jason questions, he's very receptive. His plans are quite exciting, I think - to the extent I understand any of this. 😇 There's quite a few of us both here and there.

@EddieHinkle I have most of the same issues as @belle and like her I’ve raised them (since I joined early in the year). I can certainly understand her decision and for a time I considered leaving as well. I do feel @Manton is being consistent with his stated value/goals within the confines of a single person small business that is no-cost for those who self-host. I haven’t left because I have evaluated the same criteria with a different result and, possibly, with a different timeframe for realization of the goals of micro.blog. This is coming from someone who decided early on I needed to self-host. Here’s hoping the service & apps continue to evolve at a brisk pace. Best thoughts to all involved.

@belle That's a great writeup with a lot of good points! I particularly like your thoughts on API design!

@belle Yes, some people do.

@belle This is such a smart and insightful piece (both in human and technical terms). Your voice was one of the first I saw here and I’ll miss it. If you find (or build!) the kind of platform you want, please let us know :)

Also: where do I go now for puppy Samoyed pics?

@belle I'm sorry to see you go, I'll miss seeing you on my timeline! But I understand your concerns, and you gotta do what's right for you! I'll be adding your blog to my RSS reader and hopefully I can keep up with what you're up to that way, and maybe I'll run into you on another platform some day!

@belle As you know, you're always welcome here if you want to return later. While I disagree on some fundamental points (like content ownership and diversity, both of which we care deeply about), I really appreciate your participation going back to the very early days. Pico was great too! Looking forward to working through some of the API glitches as the platform matures.

@belle I've had a chance to read through your post. I found myself disagreeing more than agreeing - which is fine, different perspectives are health. What I did take and should be considered more closely (especially that you're an early adopter and therefore a sneezer) by @manton is the overall feeling that you seem to have, which is that of frustration. Unfortunately, the frustration is across three parts: 1. Lack of community ownership. I feel there is something to be said about that part, although I don't see a clear answer. This note is not hosted on my microblog (hosted or otherwise), it's somewhere on the servers. I'm contributing to a community but have no ownership of that community. This point has come up before and I honestly don't know what the solution is. 2. Lack of agency. This is about contributing. You can't be open and closed at the same time. I actually choose not to contribute my time towards the Micro.blog platform specifically because I know it's not an open platform. It's a commercial enterprise. I contribute to Micro.blog by paying for it every month. For some that's not enough. Because obviously things take time to build, the lack of speed will frustrate some early adopters like yourself. I think this a valid gripe, but alas I also think that you need to curb your expectations. Maybe in a year's time with more people paying, it'll become viable to get an extra pair of hands, maybe even two? 3. Lack of Diversity. The truth is, by the very nature of Micro.blog's structure (ie you are writing for your blog that gets 'syndicated'), the type of content is less about what others want and more about what the writer themselves want. And that makes classifying harder, which has the advantage that echo chambers are harder to create. The information you're consuming however is captured in a haphazard manner, which some don't mind, while other will find frustrating. I'm getting to that point myself.

@kaa This is a good analysis. Thanks for sharing. 👍

@EddieHinkle no worries :). Annoying that I can’t edit the reply for the typos and formatting :) oh well.

@kaa I agree about point one that I'm not sure of the answer. I think there are lots of options, and that it's Manton's prerogative to not try them. For point 2, I don't think it's fair to say it's too early to have enough team members to move things faster (if I understood you correctly) because of my example about three separate iOS apps being created and maintained while Android doesn't have one, and the API docs aren't well designed or maintained. There are very clear decisions being made about where to spend the available person hours that don't make me hopeful about what would happen with an extra team member available.

@belle I think one challenge though is it’s not apples to apples. Manton and Jonathan have iOS programming experience. It would take MUCH longer for them to develop an app for a platform that they don’t have that experience in. So from a programming perspective I can see how it’s much easier to say kick out a new iOS app than learning an entirely new platform. That said, I understand that some of that time could be spent improving the API and developer support.

@EddieHinkle That's fair in terms of the original client being for iOS. I would have done the same. It's a lot harder to buy for second and third iOS apps, though. Especially considering I am an iOS dev like Manton. I'd never touched Android before I made Pico and it only took a few weeks to make a basic client. It's unfair to not acknowledge the choice involved. I've heard Manton say he's not interested in Android. It's personal choice not to support his Android users to some degree and we should at least acknowledge that.

@kaa Replies stored separately from your blog has been an open question since the beginning that I do want to address, but many people don't want replies on their own site. My current thinking is it should just be an option to put replies at your own domain name.

@belle Oh sure, I can agree with that. There is definitely some personal choice involved. I just mean that there is more of a barrier to Android so when looking at innovating in new areas with photo blogging and microcasting or building an Android client, the familiarity of the code will have an effect on the decision matrix. Not saying it’s the right decision, but the experience will influence things. That’s great to hear transitioning to Android programming was that easy for you!! I’ve considered it before but am not a fan of Android or Java but I’ve heard interesting things about Kotlin

@belle @eddiehinkle the vast majority of Manton’s time is focused on the platform. Sunlit isn’t a new app at all, and while he did work on it, most of the time I was held back, waiting for him while he worked on other pieces. For example, I’ve had the “Instagram” interface coded since February, but we just released it because I had to wait for him. I don’t know another developer who is as thoughtful and measured as he is, to the benefit of the community that has developed here. To be clear, I am not a formal part of Micro.blog. I’m just a friend who likes what he is creating. Based on most of the complaints I’ve read, I think most people would prefer he look for funding so he can move more quickly. I just wonder if that’s really the best advice.

@manton I agree, based on the number of Microcasts that have popped up (including mine) since, I believe it has made the platform stronger. Wavelength has changed the way I approach and think about podcasting.

@EddieHinkle Thank you!

@EddieHinkle It wasn't easy at all! I got stuck a lot. My point was only that the time to get some basic working code shipped wasn't huge when I made it a priority, and I'm way less experienced a dev than Manton. Kotlin is great! I don't know Java but the similarities between Swift and Kotlin helped me a lot.

@vanessa This sounds really cool! Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on this for sure.

@manton @eddiehinkle but was "innovating" the right choice when the API is barely mature or documented enough (for a third party to have) to build a basic Android app? It's easy to say it's made the platform stronger... If you're on iOS and you feel looked after. Your opinion might be different if you didn't have the privilege of being on iOS.

@joshsharp I actually don’t use the micro.blog apps aside from Wavelength. I do everything in my RSS reader and my website. So aside from microcasting, nothing would change if I was on Android. I reply through Webmentions from my site to Micro.blog.

@EddieHinkle @joshsharp Also, as an Android and Windows user I'll say that I had a similar thought to you, Josh, but given time and an effort to understand the idea and approach of Micro.blog soon moved past that. As Eddie as just shown, it's not just about the common apps.

@belle you have no way of knowing whether there are enough resources for more help - only @manton does since he controls the purse strings for his company. As for the Android thing - I'm sure we've been here before. There have been some great enhancements in the last few months (the web interface is instant to post, footer, upload docs). There is so much to unpack tbh.

@manton I think you're right and they should be given a separate container (so they can be styled differently), with possibly a conversation link by default as well.

@kaa You're totally right about the resources. None of us should make assumptions about that—I know what it's like when users do that; so frustrating! I honestly don't expect Manton to individually make an app for every platform. I'd just like to see better polish on the web app and API so others of us can fill those gaps. I found it a struggle to fill the Android gap because of trouble with the API and API docs, and didn't feel fixing those was a priority for Manton, so it felt like an uphill battle. None of this is simple or easy, of course! I respect Manton for taking on so much.

@belle I respect you and your opinions very much, and your post has given me a lot to think about. I’m so sorry that you’re leaving this community because you were a great asset to it. I hope that our paths cross online outside of me breaking the iOS Exist app. 😉

@PhoneBoy To be clear, I don't think anyone suggested the API wasn't workable or documented. The post said that there were some inconsistencies that could be unified.

@cygnoir Haha thanks, I hope that too! It's been really nice getting to know you here 😁

@PhoneBoy Of course! But there's a big difference between "room for improvement" and what you said. Just want to stick with an accurate portrayal so we can actually know what to do.

@kaa The web interface as hosted site (ie. instant to post, footer, upload docs, etc) is one thing. The web interface as a reading interface is another. It's less featured than an iOS app (can't get more than 45-ish posts in history, for eg), yet it should be just as easy to implement with much broader reach.

@oyam Even the reading interface got some enhancements! First off was the option to read everyone's reply or only those you follow. The following 'bug' got formalised and made the list better. More Emoji (and an official page showing what was supported). Look I hear you about the 45 posts or whatever, that's annoying, there shouldn't be a limit, but maybe it's there for a reason (possibly traffic is greater from the web than from iOS?)

@kaa The replies, sure, I don’t use it but that’s a good one. I don’t consider “more emoji” a reading interface improvement. And what good are any of those improvements when I can’t see enough posts, and hence can’t really use the service? If “more traffic” was the answer, than the current “solution” to show 45 posts is bad one - it used to show maybe 20 or 25, so increasing it to 45 made the pages bigger overall, instead of serving up smaller pages and having ability to fetch more posts if I need them.

@oyam So seeing more posts suddenly makes the service usable? That's the language you are choosing to use here. I agree the web app needs work, as I've already stated, but shitting on improvements just because your preferred change hasn't happened doesn't come close to constructive criticism.

@oyam Also the emoji are a reading interface improvement because they improve discovery by filtering the posts you see. Taxonomy isn't revolutionary but dismissing is out of hand is ridiculous.

@simonwoods I guess it depends on what your definition of "service" is. I follow people that post things that are interesting to me. I want to want be able to see my timeline and be able to get back to posts and discussions that were on it. By showing me last 20 or 40 posts (which sometimes can be less than an hour), I'm not getting what I expect from the service, thus it's not usable.

"Shitting", was your choice of words and interpretation, not mine... I never said it was a bad change, I said: "And what good are any of those improvements when I can’t see enough posts, and hence can’t really use the service?". And that's exactly what I meant.

Taxonomy improves discovery. Discovery may improve how useful the service is (as in being able to find posts), but it does not improve usability; ie. Being able to physically use the thing.

@belle do you have a contact form or email address anywhere to drop you a quick note? I didn’t see one on your site.

@oyam When you say "what good is X when Y isn't in place?" and it turns out X is good then yes, you're shitting on them.

Right, so general usability, i.e. the way you want to use it is heavily, if not wholly dependent on an infinitely accessible timeline? Just trying to figure out specifics since "physically use the thing" doesn't really mean anything.

@Lioncourt Yep, it's belle at hello code. You can find that domain if you look (I keep it hard to find on purpose because I get a lot of rubbish emails).

@simonwoods I'm not familiar with that interpretation. It's your choice how you interpret it, so it's all in your contol. I would suggest not blowing everything out of proportions right into the extremes.

Inifnite? (Another extreme...) Sure, I'll take infinite if you have the technology, but on par with other clients would be sufficient. The web client, which is available to everyone, should be able to have at least the same core features the iOS client has. Especially, when the APIs are already there for it, since the iOS client uses it. (I don't have access to the iOS client, but when I did, I was able to hit the button to go several days in history, which is significantly higher than 45 posts)

@belle cool 😎 message sent. Thanks!

@oyam 👍🏻

@oyam from what I've read I think you're making very reasonable points. Being able to read more than 45 posts does increase usability and would allow users to visit more infrequently and still catch up on everything that's happened since. It feels like a core improvement to be made to the reading experience.