@jonkit I'd like Twitter without the bad parts.
That being said, I can't get this tweet from @ismh out of my head. It was a thought technology I wasn't prepared for.
@liss I find @ismh's viewpoint on that front misguided. I don't disagree with him that humanity has a darkness that can't be ignored, but Micro.blog has a much stronger approach to community management and has even brought on @macgenie to help ensure that Micro.blog is a positive community. Humanity's darker elements are precisely why its important to have strong community management and guidelines, and that's where Twitter falls apart.
@liss @cleverdevil It's worth thinking about what "block" means when posts are public on blogs. There's no way to stop someone from reading your blog. This is why we're focusing on mute and reporting first (and paying attention in case specific replies need to be blocked, which is possible), but I know there's more we can do.
@manton Here's how I feel - "block" is an action from user which leads to reporting the user/post "blocked". Post that, if found at fault, micro.blog platform can "block" user/website - no posts from user/website in anyone's timeline.
"Mute" is just an action (without any reporting), which is specific to user - don't show this post/user in my timeline. cc @cleverdevil
@manton Good to hear. A big part of my coming here is hope for a service with a better model to deter harassment mobs. On the bird site, daring to @ popular users or use popular hashtags feels like an invitation for instant harassment.
@amit @cleverdevil Thanks. That has essentially been my thinking on this too, although I'd say "report" instead of "block". If a post is determined to be hateful or harassing, it will be blocked for all users. If all of a user's posts are a problem, their ability to reply will be toggled off.
@gregmoore Thank you. That is a big part of why we don't have hashtags or trends. I know it can make discovery a little trickier, but I think it's the right design (and we can improve discovery in other ways).
@manton Nice. A user may also need a way to block/report another user, in addition to posts. I hope that too is in consideration. And my expectation as a user would be on report of a post/user, it should be muted for the current user.
@liss @cleverdevil I'm not sure open standards has much to do with it, in that “Block" on Twitter only works if the blocked party is logged in. Nothing stops someone from logging out and reading your tweets anyway.
@manton IMHO, discovery should be a little tricky. The big social platforms have convinced people to reduce themselves into topics because that’s what works best for their ad and engagement models. Pay services like this should be free to develop and encourage far less reductive exploration.
@Lioncourt Though I suppose, on Twitter, one could go private and block, which may not be desireable for everyone, but would solve the problem.
🤷🏻♂️
@gregmoore Thank you for saying this, Greg. A lot of people have dropped snark about Micro.blog lacking Discovery without ever truly expanding on what it is they are talking about. Many important parts of this issue are largely ignored but you've hit on a big one right there.
@gregmoore Now that's an interesting statement. I think there is another side to that which is the advice of being "niche" to be notice online. Perhaps that is simply because search engines/social networks reward that reduction but spectators also like reliability ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@amit That's a nice technical distinction, but I'd wager a guess that most people who ask for "block" functionality mainly mean "I never want to see that user's filth anymore", plus a slightly lesser wish that they wouldn't even be allowed to post that stuff.
Maybe "report" and "filter" would be a better terminology?
@ChrisJWilson Doesn't all this boil down to "what do users use this for?" Like, I use the birdsite to keep in touch with a few friends, but I also use it to find people who do interesting things, to learn more about those things.
So reduction of people to certain topics is IMO a natural part of social networks like this. I originally went on Twitter because Wolf Rentzsch posted interesting stuff about Mac programming. Friends only joined later.
@liss so @manton had a good clarification, but another aspect to consider is the hybrid of centralization and decentralization that Micro.blog has chosen. People are free to write whatever they want on their externally hosted sites, but Micro.blog can exclude content or entire sites from its central index for violating community standards. With a totally decentralized system (like Mastodon) you have very little control. Anyone can set up a Nazi friendly instance and then federate with the larger network. Micro.blog’s hybrid approach is quite smart!
@uliwitness I basically agree with you. I would add that services can have or introduce features to encourage certain behaviours. I think I follow two or three friends on Twitter. The stranger crossover for me was when I started to follow non-friends on Facebook.
@ChrisJWilson I think you’re correct and that the important difference lies between how social networks promote and the open web promotes. Seeking notoriety by posting niche content is very different than gaming hashtags and follow/unfollow campaigns.
@simonwoods I suspect a lot of that snark comes from Micro.blog being pitched as “your favorite social network but nice,” which isn’t really fair. I’m hoping it develops into its own thing and not just an alternative.
@uliwitness Sure. I do not mind what it's called as long as the functionality on these lines is introduced.
On this, "they wouldn't even be allowed to post that stuff" - they may post it on their site, I wish to not see it on the platform.
@cleverdevil I love the Micro.blog team and strategy but human management doesn’t scale to the size of Twitter.
@ismh yes. But, the real question should be — is it possible to build tools or inherent rules that lead to the public social networks we say we want? Or, is human nature the inherent unsolvable social network problem.
I’m hoping it develops into its own thing and not just an alternative.
I'm confident it will. Manton once said he regrets having not started it 6 years ago and apart from anything else if he does go down a bad path there will be a lot of his own words to throw at him; I dare say it would end any significant involvement with web-based projects for him, and at that point we're talking about somebody's livelihood.
That's one of the things I like about the corporate web alternatives; people are putting more than just their money where their mouth is, whilst the people running the corporate web do everything they can to hide from even the faintest whiff of responsible leadership.
@eggfreckles Okay, I nearly praised your first posting of the day. Now many hours later, you are two for two for the day. Both postings have clearly presented insights worth reading and considering. Keep up the good work.
@eggfreckles Definitely agree that the buy-in cost creates more ownership for users.
It's a definite tradeoff from the ease of reaching people on Twitter, though. Sometimes that low barrier is fantastic for interactions.
@BrianCordanYoung @ismh I think it also depends on specific problem - harassment, addicitive tendencies, reductive arguments all manifest in different ways and can have different solutions.
It also remains to be seen whether you can "fix" a large network when it gets broken. I don't think we've seen serious efforts for Twitter to adapt. The incentives are misaligned. If the incentives of micro.blog stay focused on a relatively cohesive community, I think it's much more clear problem to solve.
@cycomachead I toy with the idea that given the right tools we could all shape a feed to be what we each want. That is from an individuals point of view.
The fallacy may be in the larger population view point. That the tools could never be simple enough and the incentives could not be disconnected from a large company’s need for engagement — such that our society wont rise above the worst of what we see from social networks.
@eggfreckles I made exactly this point on the latest Analog.
However, that barrier to entry necessarily is exclusive as well, even to people that all of us would wish to have here. Especially the underprivileged and underrepresented.
@liss @eggfreckles While I generally agree with the sentiment about the cost barrier to entry for m.b., the truth is that you can use a tumblr account to post to here, or a wordpress account. The barrier is there, but it isn't as high as I first feared.
@dgold @liss @eggfreckles I agree with point of the barrier being lower than expected. So far, all that I’ve seen is an environment that’s mostly cordial, with more people joining; those who are engaged and interested seem to be finding their way here. I’ve had genuine replies to my posts from strangers, in ways that I’ve rarely had on Twitter. The most that I could hope for there was a throw-away like.
@liss @ismh yeah, he’s not wrong. There’s no escaping it and I think it’s silly to think otherwise. And I certainly agree with the last part (bringing light). To use his analogy, though, I just don’t want to voluntarily go to the playground where the jerks are and I don’t want to help the playground owner make money.
@dgold @liss @eggfreckles Whether it’s $5/mo or the tech savvy to set up a custom blogging platform and link the two, there seems to be a very real barrier to entry. I think one/both of those will exclude a large swath of well-meaning people from the platform. So they will use something else and things will fragment. I don’t know if it’s possible to come up with one place that mostly works for everyone, but that feels to me like the thing to strive for.
@eggfreckles Yes, including everyone is my goal.
More specifically, being available to everyone and having some way to address abuses of the platform or its users so jerks don’t ruin things for everyone else.
@eggfreckles I think a lot of public infrastructure succeeds at this. You mention parks which I think are generally welcoming to all. Public transportation in many cities is used by rich and poor alike. I hope that means there are approaches that can work here with similar benefit for everyone.
@eggfreckles I spent a couple of days in New York City earlier this year and used only public transportation. Worked great, no issues. (Yes, there is graffiti at some stations, etc., but it wasn’t offensive.) I am not saying NYC subway is perfect, but it seems to serve the public good without shutting too many people out.
@cheesemaker Who are the big micro.bloggers to follow? I've followed a number of people but am still finding my timeline pretty sparse too.
@sharding I think the answer to that is sort of an evolving answer. Certainly, following @manton and @macgenie is useful. Beyond that, there are a number of other very regular micro.bloggers that I enjoy (some examples: @kitt, @aaronpk, @belle, @jack @bitdepth @cleverdevil ) There is also a weekly podcast that features a new person each week: monday.micro.blog and of course the various discover views in the apps all provide sneak peeks into others. My personal habit is to just follow any new person I come across. If you look at my followers list you can see how many posts each one has. That's a pretty good indicator of their engagement on the platform.
@cheesemaker @sharding I second Jon’s list and add the northern trident of @patrickrhone, @schuth, and @vasta (they don’t always post daily, but their posts are always worthwhile), @rnv, @Ron, @fiona, @amit, @Burk, @eli…I follow too many people ;-) so the list could go ad infinitum, but that’s another bunch to prime the pump. (If you like my taste, you can also peruse everyone I’ve recommended for Micro.blog’s weekly Micro Monday feature.)
@ismh I think one of the beautiful things is that the business model (in theory) is positioned to allow it to be profitable without scale. I feel like scale is what broke twitter.
I’m hoping it develops into its own thing and not just an alternative.
@gregmoore I feel like it is.
I haven't dug to far in, but I like the fliudity of what you can create as a micro blogger. If an idea stretches past the 280 limit I can flesh it out and develop it into a full blog post.
I get the sense of the timeline being a water cooler for podcasters and bloggers. If you manage your site and podcast on the service it feels even smoother.
@cheesemaker For sure; I understood you were just giving a few quick suggestions, and I thought I’d add a few more, because more choices are always better, right (especially when someone is looking for some content for their timeline). Teamwork, if you will :-)
@gregmoore wrote "On the bird site"
The bird site?? You mean the Audubon Society site or the excellent Cornell site on birds?
@Ron LOL, I wish those sites got as much traffic as twitter. Can you imagine how less frazzled we would be if we cared as much about birds as we do social media?
@sethdrebitko OMG, yes this! Online services shouldn’t need to scale up to encompassing everyone in the entire world.