A question for the people who have children and who say that they love their children, how is it that you spend so much of your time talking and being frustrated about subjects like technology, and so little time expressing concern and frustration about the fact that our world is burning and we’re doing nothing to stop it?
@Denny It has always been risky to have children. Most children born through human history did not survive to adulthood -- if I remember my stats from studying the ancient near East, one in five children survived to the age of fifteen. (It is only within the past century that women could reliably control their fertility, and and there are plenty of laws now, here, in this country, that prevent women from controlling our own bodies; as long as we have men and women and biology, we will have children, loved or not.)
When I had children, I knew people who decided not to have children because of the threat of nuclear war, and also fear about the environment. Millions of children in human history have had their lives destroyed by war, famine, slavery / serfdom, lives of unremitting poverty and labor. So I question the premise that one must be an unloving parent, if one bears children into an uncertain and dangerous world. The world has always been uncertain and dangerous.
Re talking about technology versus climate change, I could do a lot of things about controlling my kids' access to technology when they were growing up. When it comes to climate change, I feel disempowered to do much about it; much like I feel disempowered to do much to prevent another Great Depression or World War. Like most mothers, I love my children. And -- like every mother, loving or not -- I bore them into an uncertain and dangerous world, over which I have very little control.
@Denny honestly? I just don't have the energy to spend being all doom and gloom about things that a single person (myself) can't change on a global scale. So I consciously ignore it.
@annahavron Thanks for the thoughts and insight. It's something I've tried to understand and have attempted conversations with family that have children to better understand. And I do understand, to some degree, the notion that the world is uncertain so risk is involved at any time. And in that context that it's possible to have a child and love them.
I think what I'm struggling with the larger observation that children or not, the adults of our time seem to feel or act as though they are powerless. The culture is so focused on work, property acquisiton and social status, to live the "American Dream", the "Good Life" all of which is based on constant hyper consumption. And we all seem so able and willing to devote our daily attention and life energy in pursuit of these things, to wear ourselves out in such pursuit. But then claim we don't have the energy or power do anything to save ourselves. On the one hand saying, there's nothing I can do but then flying on a trip across the world for a vacation or engaging in any number of unneccesary daily activities for entertainment or consumption. The 10% doing what it does for comfort, convenience and entertainment, burning through the last chance we have.
And in America, where we claim to have "democracy" all the while most refuse to make phone calls, attend protests or anything at all. We've given up before we every really tried. We saw during covid that at least some were willing to make a real effort to protect public health, themselves, their family, their elders. We recognized that danger and acted quickly, moving faster and beyond government mandate. The people took the lead. At least many of them did. But in the case of climate change most are unwilling to take any kind of concerted, collective action. So many seem to recognize the position we're in and yet just aren't willing or able to sacrifice.
@mindofaaronw @pimoore @maique @timapple
@mindofaaronw @pimoore @maique @timapple @annahavron I think it's the unwillingness to sacrifice non-essential lifestyle that has me most confused. That we can see and acknowledge what we're doing and yet are unwilling to sacrifice flying, just to pick one very easy example of a behavior that is greatly contributing to the problem. No one has to fly to a vacation. It's an entirely optional, very expensive behavior. We actually have to work more to afford it, go out of our way to do it. The vast majority of work and leisure could happen without it. But we persist just, you know, cause we want to.
The notion seems to be, well, no one else is staying home, I'll just go along. But really isn't it still just mass, collective crime? Shouldn't we all be more honest about what it is we are doing? If one person or 10 people or 500 carry out a terrible act it's still terrible. Isn't it a basic thing to understand that more people might normalize it but doesn't remove the fact that we are doing real, measurable violence/damage. If we discussed, talked about these things as much as we discuss everything else (pick your favorite trivial thing), perhaps we'd stop normalizing what is, in hard truth, a kind of violence.
@timapple Oh, yeah, air travel is just one quick, easy example. And no doubt, there are times when it might be essential. In terms of total emissions, air transport is lower than others in the transport category. But in terms of efficiency, emissions per passenger, it's the worst.
But yeah, agree with you, it's a million places we have to make a difference! There is no one area where we need to cut. It's cuts across the board. But the key for making any progress is that we cut deeply in EVERY category as much as possible. Transport, consumption of goods, consumption of fossil fuel based energy. Based on where we are, where we need to be, and the time frame we have, this is all hands on deck, cut it all as much as possible. In winter it's putting on extra layers and keeping our homes much, much cooler. In the summer it's going in the opposite direction and tolerating as much heat as we can.
We're starting to see more mention of the idea of degrowth and that's exactly what's needed. The time for smaller more moderate cuts was 20 years ago. We've blown past that.
Here's a great breakdown on emissions by sector: ourworldindata.org/ghg-emiss...
@jasonekratz I hear you on the anxiety!
And agreed too on the understanding the scale and what 2 degrees means. It's not being explained well by the media which has really failed for the past 2 decades on this issue.
@pimoore @Denny I have come to the conclusion that blame falls squarely on capitalism and capitalist like behavior. Everything is exploitable and exploited. This is what has to change and this is what is so entrenched that I despair of it ever changing. And when you look at the plans for exploitation beyond Earth, you realize it’s a beast out of control, though, honestly, we’ve never had control of it.
@jabel @pimoore @mbkriegh @Denny Though I mostly agree on capitalism being the core source of the problem and do not expect meaningful change of it in the short run, I actually have a lot of space for distant hope. Which is to say, capitalism, in the short time frame of, say, 200-500 years seems to us immutable, but it is not so. It is a relatively new human creation. I fully expect it to outlive me. But taking the long view, humans have existed for many millenia. This monstrosity will be a short lived and failed experiment.
Sadly, it seems likely that it will exist long enough to take down much of the human population and the biodiversity of our planet. But I would guess that at least a small population would likely emerge and create something new on a greatly reduced planet. I expect that to be our fate.
Even in a shorter term though, I do not think we have to accept capitalism as a given. It is a relatively recent development and as a human created system it is not doing well. It's not proving itself to be a sustainable system. But it was created relatively quickly. I refuse to take it as a given that it must continue.
Everyday the machine rumbles along. But we cooperate with it, en masse. We all go along for this ride everyday. And so, it seems it will be a question of a breaking point or many breaking points. The wealthy 10% of the world seem to serve as the key driving force and a kind of counter balance that creates stability. But I don't imagine such a balance can last for long. I'd actually expect that it will be climate that will trigger the full on collapse. And while it could be decades away, I can't imagine it to be that far distant. 8 billion people on a planet with diminishing ecological stability and likely diminishing food stability increasingly wrecked by floods, fires, etc. There's a breaking point. But when and what does it look like.
@Denny It's a painful experience to have a sense of moral urgency about something, that others do not share. Or, they share the concern, but do not share one's sense of the proper response to make. fwiw during covid in my community, people were deeply divided over the urgency of the problem, and how to respond. Concerted, collective, constructive action is very difficult to foster; even when people literally are faced with a deadly threat.
@annahavron Thanks Anna, agreed. It's certainly something I struggle with. It's hard to find a balance and to know when and what is appropriate or healthy to share. Yikes.
