Dear IndieWeb, it may be time to start considering the user, not just the technical spec. eli.li

@eli I agree with you Eli, it is still early days and I had similar conclusions as you. However, on errors, I did find indiewebify.me a lot useful. And helpful, take you through stages. Not sure if you share that experience.

@amit I totally agree — think there is a load of great tooling around the IndieWeb. The issue, as I see it, is that it isn't integrated. There is a loose ecosystem of interoperable tools. Discovering these tools can be tricky, and, if the IndieWeb community cares about inclusion (bringing on more folks), then we need to make it easier to get up and running. No one needs to research how to use tumblr...they're able to figure it out. There may be a hidden keyboard shortcut here and there for power users, but generally speaking, folks can sign up and go. That isn't true for the IndieWeb. Granted, it may never be true, because the IndieWeb is sort of contingent on domain name ownership, but, either way, I think there is more that could be done (more that I could do (I want to be clear again that I'm really not trying to call anyone out here, just ask if there is a generation shift taking place)) to make it easier to get up and running.

@mikehaynes word, that is totally true, and may be the answer to the issue I've described. I'm a huge fan of everything micro.blog and @manton et al. are doing — it is why I went all in on the IndieWeb. All that being said, I think even micro.blog has a ways to go before it is really general use, but it is wicked close.

@radiopetushki touché, touché (you've outed my personal IndieWeb motivation, though 😱)

@radiopetushki @eli It's worth all the trouble, though. For everything that Tumblr got right (and they got a lot right!) the dashboard and other features don't work with non-Tumblr sites, so it's not compatible enough with the rest of the web.

@manton so much yes to this! 🙌

@eli, I imagine that it is more complicated than just turning attention to the user. I am not a programmer. I have not technical training. All my knowledge is self-taught. I may not know what all the errors mean, but I can at least debug to a degree. My actually occupation is the delivery of a sector-wide LMS. I am a teacher whose job it is to make connections between the technical and the pedagogical. My experience is that this comes down to storytelling.

I feel that what is needed are more people in-between the divide of Gen 1 & 2 vs. 3 & 4. People who are living it, asking questions and identifying the various points of confusion. I think this is what will take the #IndieWeb from a hipster-web to a "demonstratably better web"

Syndicated at Read Write Collect

@eli here is an example of my effort to document some of my own struggles and experiences. My hope is that in sharing my journey it might make it easier? Clearer? For somebody else.

@eli In total agreement, too many moving parts that always don't work right out of the box.

That said, I'm going to be working on making my blog IndieWeb compliant yet again.

@eli I had similar thoughts in that general area tonight. My Timeline today has been about 50% posts from people who are currently, or are planning for, doing some sort of tinkering on their websites for better IndieWeb integration (or troubleshooting said integration).

As I kept reading, I was thinking, “I enjoy a little bit of tinkering—after all, I am an Ardisson—but even this amount is more than I’m up for right now, and I can’t imagine my ‘normal’ friends wanting to do any of it.” Which is a shame, because the “post-blog generation” of social media is ripe for blog-based disruption right now. Instead, it feels like we’re setting up for replacing “WordPress consultant” with “IndieWeb consultant” as a career field to support those people who actually do decide to join the IndieWeb movement ;-)

And while Micro.blog is a stellar example of a major step forward w/r/t user-friendliness/user focus (well-deserved 👏 for Manton), the fact that M.b-hosted blogs don’t even have the option of receiving (displaying?) webmentions-as-comments shows that there’s still a lot to be done to get “there” even in the best cases.

(And this reply ended up being so long that it really should be a post on my blog instead, but I have yet to tinker in support for sending a webmention to a Micro.blog conversation ;-) )

@eli I think that this is 💯% correct. There is a long way to go, but I think the path is not completely clear. I kind of feel like Wordpress is a Gen 2 tool. I might be wrong. But it feels like the solution to this is not just making Wordpress plugins better.

I think it is something that has: easy one-click install approach (better if no install needed but I think that’s still a ways off), a straight forward configuration/settings screen.

I think that means IF this solution is based in Wordpress, it probably means creating a simplified Admin Theme with the traditional Wordpress Admin Theme as an optional switch in “advanced settings”.

I wonder to some extent if Drupal is a good solution, however I don’t know about the one-click installation possibilities of that. I almost think either Known being further refined or an “original IndieWeb focused CMS”. However the IndieWeb is so big there are many diverse opinions as to what something like that would be like.

I lean towards those later two options: Refining Known or developing a new simple IndieWeb principled CMS, incorporating things like flat file storage and/or SQLite. With the idea of keeping it low configuration and maintenance.

@radiopetushki @eli Not if you end up with something as easy and as fun where you aren’t beholden to anyone.

@smokey @eli Showing replies on a hosted site is planned, by the way. It can receive them already, but it shows them in the timeline. Probably will be a site setting to toggle on showing replies.

I have with @eli on this, as a newbie trying to get into IndieWeb I am finding the process frustrating. I am willing to push thru the frustration because I see it as a challenge, but most people don’t want a challenge

@klandwehr That's about where I am, too. I am learning a lot, but meeting barriers all along the way.

@manton agreed. The ideal state is pretty close to rebuilding tumblr or Google Reader. Tumblr has solid authoring tools, good sharing and liking mechanisms, and works with your own domain. But you can’t own the server and truly host your own. Google Reader worked with the web@and your existing blog, but conversations, sharing, and starring were closed and it lacked authoring tools. My ideal is a web where all blogs can and do opt into the tooling of Tumblr and pre-Buzz, pre-Google Plus Google Reader.

@mrkrndvs firstly, shout out to LMS folks! 🙌 At my previous job I worked on and designed a variety of LMS and Coaching software! It is such a great space.

While I totaly agree that posts like your are valuble (I've written a number of similar posts myself), I don't think the IndieWeb can completely rely on newcommers seeking such posts out — especially when there isn't a really solid way of discovering such posts right form the get-go. Sort of thinking out loud: do you think a directory of posts that document other follks' IndieWeb journy would be a valuable shared resource?

@jsonbecker @manton I'm heartened seeing other folks reference Tumblr and Google Reader of yore in the context of micro.blog — these exact thoughts were one of the primary (maybe the) primary reason I funded m.b on Kickstarter. As a nerd in a rural area (a bit less rural these days), I freqently miss the interactions I had with a vibrant community of folks over on Tumblr and Livejournal, as faciliated by Google Reader. The IndieWeb and Micro.blog have 100% those pangs of loss. 🍻 to the brave new webby future!

@eli I know the feeling of being a nerd in the country. I think if I didn't have methods like Tumblr, Steam chat and Discord, I would've gone insane.

And Micro.blog really does bring back memories of those warm fuzzy days typing away to far away nerds, but at the same time feeling so connected to them.

This entire chain is music to my ears, but I feel we still need to define the ‘exam question’.

If I am out there in tumblr/facebook land, what am i missing that indie web brings that i actually care about, to such a degree that i would part with cash to join in.

micro.blog

@eli I am building a simple (open source) service to add Micropub to static sites for exactly this. I enjoy hacking my own, but want to offer friends and family a path, too.

@eli maybe a collection is a good idea. I don't necessarily expect newbies to come looking for.my posta, instead I imagined them being useful in identifying areas to work on for the wider community. I could be wrong, but I thought that was kind of the intent of the wiki. My problem is that I don't know where to start.

@mrkrndvs I think you’ve hit on the number one issue with the wiki: it can be a great resource, but there is no clear starting place. The wiki is akin to building a car with only the encyclopedia as a reference. Somewhere in there is helpful info, but there is a whole lot of info that is only tangentially relevant, too. It can be wicked daunting.

@eli @mrkrndvs I love wikis, but someone once told me that "wiki" is the Hawaiian word for "Can't find shit" and I believe them :)

@PhoneBoy true - but it's not done at once and what you do over time is shaped by the ‘who' that you are seeking to adopt at that moment. Crossing The Chasm is a good model - but hard even if you are a single, focussed company - much less a global movement.

@PhoneBoy and there is the question.

@matigo Ah, I would support such a thing as much as possible but I'm not currently capable of building it. From even the small exposure I've had I have noticed that a number of people are building tools of that kind, whilst my goals are in the region of communicating to, and connecting people with the best efforts of the IndieWeb.

@simonmumbles thanks! I'm of the opinion that getting involved with the IndieWeb community is where it is at, and, you nailed it, the trick is helping the community move from spec to user, from 1st and 2nd gen, to 3rd and 4th. Micro.blog is a great leap in that direction, but there is yet more to be done! ONWARD!

@matigo Ooh so you're behind 10Centuries. Cool! I'll give it a whirl and definitely include it in the thing I'm working on.