@larand I'll bite. It feels a lot like the heady days at anchor.fm (which was great while it lasted). But every wave eventually has to break. I'm not too thrilled about micro-casts or the direction of MB right now. Too much, too soon, too exclusive.
@larand I understand the frustration - I remember being very grumpy myself when everything was iOS-oriented. It does feel like a totally closed universe and, given the number of Android users out there, somewhat short-sighted. ADN rather fell into that trap, too.
@larand Completely agree. I'm lucky (?) in that I do now have an iPhone, but only recently. Ignoring users of other platforms just makes this another self-congratulating elitest club. A network of iOS nerds. Aside from my iPad, I struggled on ADN & got heartily stick of the "ooh, a new app" excitement & the Apple obsession.
@adiabatic I tend to use the app only for replying and basic posts. Anything else I do either via MarsEdit or from the WordPress interface. I'm used to that from 10C, so it's not really an issue. I do remember the pain of running on Android in an Apple-centric environment though.
@larand I hear the feedback. I just have no experience building Android apps, so I focus on what I can do. Dialog for Android also looks great and I want to encourage that. We want to expand but also want a solid foundation first.
@larand Sure, it's needed. But I am serious about the Android devs. Androidistan is many times larger (but poorer) than Appleville, but even at half the per capita rate of devs, there should be more Android devs. So… why don't they ship?
I was being more cryptic with my take this morning - but bottom line I have a number of things that would improved the basic usability of micro.blog without even touching images - much less podcasts.
Personally - I was very disappointed with the ‘cheese’ delivered today. I get the point that other developers can and will handle android - and Manton not best placed to do that - but now we have THREE ios Apps … so is that three android apps that have to be developed to keep up? And who outside of Manton is going to do that - and why would they given that the core platform needs some work to make it stick for the pltfrom to prove it has the legs?
I often point out to people that despite irs modern sprawling portfolio, Google is known as a search company because that is what they spent YEARS doing ... not books, self driving, thermostats, videos, maps et al ... that all came after they had their basics in place .. good grief ... it was 5 years before they even sold advertising …
i am now wrestling with what he ‘basics’ of micro.blog are
// @larand @mdhughes @adiabatic @vanessa @skematica
@chrislopez yup ... much as having a word processor does not make you a writer, nor a camera a photographer - etc
As the barriers to entry fall so the quality of what is possible rise .... but a jerky video is NOT ‘urban style’ ... it’s a jerky video ... of course it is all fun and cool and clever - but that ain’t where the dollars live ... and much as we all aim to live our dreams - we also need to dollars to do that living.
@JohnPhilpin I'll add a bit from my perspective... We can't go 5 years just tuning the basics without taking VC money, which I think would ruin everything we're trying to do. It has to be sustainable and microcast hosting is part of that. (New social networks usually fail. Hosting, though, is a proven business model.)
@chrislopez Everyone is free to their opinions but incompetence is a very strong word. I don’t think that is QUITE applicable in this case.
@chrislopez @larand It's all trade-offs. Those "multi-platform" startups never have a Mac version, but we do. Android is really important long-term. I hope I didn't give the impression that it wasn't.
@chrislopez @larand @manton I'm an end user too, a writer. I own no Apple devices and when I joined the Kickstarter I was pretty clueness. I didn't even realize this would at least start as an Apple platform! I mainly supported it to get the book (!), because I knew there would be a lot I'd have to learn to get some independence from the silos. The very first day, I asked how to post a picture and was told to "use the app." What app? "The one for the iPhone." Ohhhh . . . and then I realized I had stepped into the Apple world. Ha ha
But so what? No one has been torturing me or hurtling insults at me. In fact the place has been super welcoming. I have been participating a lot since the beginning, using just the web interface with my PC, my Chromebook and my Android phone. And guess what, I'm independent of the silos now, just by using a Manton hosted Micro.blog account! I guess I have limitations compared to those with Apple devices, but things have been going well for me. The hosted account has been very easy to use, so no real complaints from me. I even got it working with my own domain name, which only required a small amount of help from Manton. I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he has created here. Okay, one complaint. When I read with my Android phone, if I follow a link, when I come back, a very high percentage of the time I arrive back at the TOP of the timeline, not at the place from where I left. That is a major pain in the butt, a bug in my opinion, BUT the same damn thing happened with Dave Winer's rivers too! And remember, I am now independent of the silos and I didn't have to learn a damn thing in that book, to come later.
I followed Dave Winer very closely for two or more years, using every blogging tool he created and some were just great. But it was always a verrrry small group of people participating. Some of the folks here now were over there too. But Dave never created anywhere close to the amount of engagement that Manton has managed to create here.
I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest person here, so I should be having all kinds of trouble catching on to how to use this new fangled stuff, right? Well, I've found it easy to use, as easy as any silo, but free of ads and most annoyances. Have any of you ever managed a community platform before? I started an email reflector for a community of a few hundred folks scattered around the world. We had one Unix guy who ran the email reflector and there were THREE of us who did the moderating. This was when Usenet was popular, but not much happening yet on the world wide web. People loved the service, but it was a ton of work for three moderators to keep up with. We finally closed it down from exhaustion. I see Manton's polite, friendly explanations to new folks, warmly welcoming them all and I'm often very impressed. We were welcoming too, but it took three of us and sometimes we were pulling our hair out.
Now I will agree with Chris that it would be cool if there were improvements to the web interface. Maybe it should be considered the most basic tool for using the service, so it would be very nice if a person with a hosted account could do pretty much anything that is possible to be done on the service. In my ideal world, one could use the web interface to do anything available and should not even have to consider whether to buy an Apple device to do fancier things. For me, I can write just fine with the hosted account. And psssst . . . did you ever notice that there is no character limit in a reply around here? So thanks everyone for the bandwidth and for not shouting me down and you can have the timeline back now.
@Ron Thank you! Also, I smiled when I saw your reply because it's kind of a bug that replies are allowed to be so long. 🙂
@manton Ha ha, yeah I was feeling a little bad that I might be tipping off too many long winded bloviators. :)
@Ron @manton I feel the same way about the web interface. Since there are no Android, Linux, etc apps, the website should be the way to consume stuff on M.b. It doesn't have to be the only one, but it should have all features, the platform specific clients should be secondary. The fact that apps can go backwards in history indefnetly and the website can't is a major painpoint for me (and I'm in the Apple ecosystem). I'd give that priority over any app features.
@manton True, but there is no other way to do a long form response. If I write up a long form post with a title, there is no way to attach it to a threaded discussion.
@oyam I agree about loading older posts. To be honest, I often forget that the web version doesn't have that. It's an oversight that we need to fix really soon.
@manton is there a way to filter replies from new posts when viewing someone's page? (eg. on micro.blog/manton/ )
@Ron @chrislopez @larand @manton just FYI, Ron, often when I come out of conversation view on the iOS app, I’m back at the top too. So, while clearly a bug, that’s not a 2nd class experience.
To Larry’s initial point, I understand his frustrations when it comes to Android. I spent years proselytising for the platform, but a combination of crappy user experiences, lack of core tools, poor update support and, you know, google, exasperated me to the point of failure.
If there were to be a m.b. Android app, which version of the os should it support? If the latest, then the user base is fractional. If not, which features will need to be missed due to known unpatched security holes?
@kaa good stuff - and well said - nice to see the timeline.
I think maybe there was some expectation setting that might have caused some of that backlash .... following the traffic ... which is my best bet as to what people think about the service and what they want from it ... I see a lot of requests for Android and more or less a similar focus on a more complete set of things out of the core platform including, but not exclusively search, better templates, ability to design own templates, reply editing ..... and more (including a. number of technical requests for it to be able to ....).
I have personally never seen a request for the ability to host podcasts.
Meanwhile ‘something big is coming’ next week, this week, today ... sets a certain set of expectations that suggests it is satisfying some kind of demand.
@JohnPhilpin I have zero interest in microcasts or podcasts in general. If my timeline becomes cluttered with links to 10-minute audio files, I'll be disappointed.
However, demand or no, I suspect that Wavelength is something @manton wanted to build. My favorite apps and services are all made by people who build things for themselves first. If Manton's tastes or tendencies veer too far from mine, I'll move on, but I don't presume to know what he must do in order to succeed. Success is measured in many ways. Someone in this thread said "...If MB is going to be anything significant...". IMO, Micro.blog is already significant. I hope it's also successfull, whatever that means to Manton.
@jack Option: "Show me no more of these" button when the clutter gets too high, specific to type of media, pictures, sounds, emoji, etc. Timeline preferences.
Comparing today to six months ago, definitely significant!
@Sylari That could work. Although it leans a little toward an algorithmic timeline, which I'd avoid at all costs. Also, for years now Twitter and Facebook have been teaching me how to just ignore things I'm not interested in and I'm getting pretty good at it :)
@johnjohnston I was sold when I realised that he wants you to own your stuff and has a clear business model that is fairly priced. I'm happy to spend $5/month for a website, which provides me a valuable service that I appreciate.
@chrislopez It's cool dude. Everyone makes mistakes, it's what makes us human, either online or in person. Critisim is fine and necessary to grow, but it should ideally remain constructive. There are plenty of things that I'd change or concentrate on more from Micro.blog, but I imagine these and many more are already on Manton's list.
@JohnPhilpin So the timeline should be a handy indication of Manton's priorities. The reason the podcast makes sense is because it's another revenue stream. $5/month provides a great start but there has to be a few more - I imagine to maintain the service free for all the others that are not paying. This is why I think Manton should consider yearly Kickstarters. It's worked out fine for things like 99% Invisible and Radiotopia, so there is no reason for people to pay $10-20/year on some stickers, a t-shirt or whatever to help the service continue.
At some point the Android app will likely help boost numbers to the service. At which point those numbers can then seek to support in multiple available ways (including podcasts).
@kaa very well put. I don’t think it’s widely appreciated how fragmented the development space is for Android.
@kaa Yearly Kickstarters are an interesting idea. 99% Invisible & Radiotopia both pull from larger “user” bases, so I’d worry about fatigue for Manton or users. OTOH, it would be a way for free/unhosted users to contribute some support without signing up for a subscription.
@jack Maybe settings more affecting local view than surgically removing from feed. More a local filter than a cutting.
@kaa An annual payment is something I've asked for - via whatever means. I prefer not to be stung for foreign transaction charges every month. Plus I don't want my hosted blog any more as I am using a different one. But I'd like to support the service some way.
@kaa While I agree podcast support is another revenue stream and paid feature diversification is almost always good instead of relying on a single one, it feels a lot like "hey, we have this new weekly podcast some people like, let's make it a feature and charge for it*. It may make financial sense but as @jack noted, timelines are inevitably going to regress from clean, textual formats to clunky and cluttered voicemail depositories. (For the skeptic of that statement: Many users would rather hit 'record' than type out a few sentences. It's why virtual keyboards on mobiles now come with a mic button.) MB reminds me of the first multi-function printer I ever supported: the more you stick into a product, the more difficult it is to make it work as designed.
@chrislopez I understand. We all feel strongly about the best direction for the platform, and it's easy to accidentally let conversations get a little more heated than they need to be. (And I agree with you about the limitations in the apps. Having the official apps is important, but so is even better third-party apps.)
@kaa To add to this, traditional paid podcast hosting begins at $9 or so per month (I pay $13). So $5 is fair price for a micro cast, not to mention the same advantages as MB, owning it unlike a couple of free ones I know. Already I’m seeing people intrigued to give it a shot, and at least one musician who sees it as a simple affordable way to share what he composes!
Seems to me the major issue with this is a perception one. People expected changes that they were looking for, perhaps because it was being teased as a big update (which implied one to MB directly) & turned out to be something tangential.
It was/is one update, would be unfair to not wait it out and see what happens over the next few updates before giving up. We all remember how Twitter started out, and worked through the beginning years—not to mention apps were indeed built entirely by 3rd parties (which they eventually stifled). I agree that the philosophy here is great, the sequence of updates will continue to be dependent on factors we may or may not like.
@jack I love this:
My favorite apps and services are all made by people who build things for themselves first.
When I get antsy about new M.b features not aligning with my desires, I try to think, “Maybe this will bring in someone new whose perspectives I need to hear.”
@chrislopez We see this so rarely, I wanted to take a second and applaud that you reflected/wrote this :)
@schuth “Maybe this will bring in someone new whose perspectives I need to hear.” That's an excellent thought, thanks!
@kaa That’s a good idea for a second Kickstarter to further development. Paying for an Android specific developer via this method (maybe even someone who is already working on a third party app) would get it done sooner.
I appreciate that Android users may feel like they would be paying twice were they to back it if they backed the first but @manton has always made the position clear and that may mean some leave out of frustration. I think it’s inevitable.
Taking the time to become familiar enough with developing for Android to the point of creating a viable/stable/secure app is probably not the best use of resources at present and it’s a shame that the likes of Dialog haven’t made it into people’s hands yet.
@Skematica Just to clarify, I've wanted to do something with podcasts in Micro.blog long before we had the idea for Micro Monday. Micro Monday just proved a great beta test. I think it's very unlikely for the timeline to be overrun with audio.
@colinwalker @manton I think a one-time Android-app focused Kickstarter is much better idea than some sort of annual fundraiser treadmill. But no new Kickstarters until the book is out, please. I think that is what many backed for originally.
@Chirag You hit the nail on the head. It was implied all the teasing, pre-announcements, and countdown were about M.b, so it's not hard to imagine why people feel upset or let down. I'm impartial to microcasts, don't really care about them, but know some people do. I couldn't care less about the app either. In a long run having it will be good for M.b, but "big update to M.b" it is not. I still face the same bugs and/or friction points I did prior to this.
@stulennon @vanessa Ditto here. I push posts to M.b via RSS, so don't need the hosting, but want to support the platform. I'd much prefer one-time (annual or whatever) to avoid exchange rate fees, etc. cc: @manton.
so I decided to write a little more on this subject...
As a new end user, I’m grateful to see some positivity around here. Thank you.
It’s tempting for me, as a new user, to believe some of the complaints that are being thrown around (as I haven’t been part of the community long enough to know the history).
@manton I'm not into microcasts, but I feel the same way. Each user gets to choose who they follow, so they can always unfollow anyone who posts crazy amount of microcasts. But I doubt people will switch to recording audio rather than typing, as it would limit their audience - not everyone can play audio throughout the day, it's way easier to read few lines of text.
I think large amount of the disappointment came from the way this was teased for a whole week, only for people to find out it's not what was implied/what they imagined. Personally I wouldn't have tased the new app and microcasting as an "update", but rather a new feature or an add-on. cc: @Skematica @jack
...I don't presume to know what he must do in order to succeed. Success is measured in many ways.
Well said 👍
@kaa I agree with most of your post, and don't think having apps for single platform is a problem, but ... What I see as a big problem is that M.b is not usable on any other platform other than iOS/macOS. The website won't let you see more than 15-20 posts of your timeline, and there's no way to go back into history. One could use an RSS reader, but that's not a solution, that's a workaround I don't want my news feed to be spewed with replies, etc. If the main site at least kept up with the Apple apps, every platform would have a way to use M.b. As it is, usability is very limited.
@chrislopez We see this so rarely, I wanted to take a second and applaud that you reflected/wrote this
Yes. 👍 (This is one of those moments where I feel a “like” button might not be a bad idea - I hate to spam people’s timeline with my one-line agreements, but I really do share @chirag’s observation and feel that @chrislopez’s self reflection and apology should be acknowledged)
@oyam I definitely hear you there. The website should ideally remain the canonical version of everything on Micro.blog to allow all users to have a complete experience. Everything else is effectively gravey from that point on.
@oyam I think the app introduced some confusion for non-iOS users. The app is only part of it. MP3 hosting and all the podcast backend stuff is cross-platform and works from the web. Overall the reaction has been great, and should bring new people to Micro.blog, which helps the whole community.
@oyam @manton While I can certainly understand the appeal and oftentimes the need to keep things close to your chest in case things don't pan out the way you anticipated (or wanted), I do think maybe a little bit of transparency on the future roadmap of features/apps (and their given priorities) might actually manage expectations?
@vishae It's a great community which is usually really positive. I think it's just a bit disappointed as maybe everyone was hoping (expecting?) some commonly requested updates to the website and instead got something legitimately awesome but out of no where :).
@manton I am excited to see the inclusion of microcasts in the service. I feel like it shows you have a really clear vision for the future of micro.blog. From what I've gathered, you care about empowering folks to write — to "blog" and to own their content. These days blogs aren't merely textual...podcasts are, in many ways, the blogs of the mobile-frist era. I think it makes a heap of sense to include micro-podcasts on a platform focused on micro blogging.
All this conversation has reminded me of one of my fav. Virginia Woolf quotes on the function of an essay (the blog of its day?):
Of all forms of literature, however, the essay is the one which least calls for the use of long words. The principle which controls it is simply that it should give pleasure; the desire which impels us when we take it from the shelf is simply to receive pleasure.
@manton I quite agree. I keep coming back to your original What is a Microblog. That, for me, is a microblog is, while micro-dot-blog is a social wrapper you've added. I was inspired by your post to start microblogging, and I am inspired anew every day I spend here.
So the timeline should be a handy indication of Manton's priorities.
No - not at all - his priorities are his business - designed to maximize the success of his business according to his overall master plan.
The timeline is ONE input to what @manton will be thinking about, because those ideas reflect what his customers are looking/hoping for.
But we have no idea what the big picture is - and to spin the old Henry Ford line … we don’t want to ask people what they want, because they will just ask for “faster horses” is valid.
I think @jack had it right :
However, demand or no, I suspect that Wavelength is something @manton wanted to build. My favorite apps and services are all made by people who build things for themselves first.
.. and I am right with him. It is clear that @manton wanted to build Wavelength. and I would never suggest that someone should not follow their passion. That is one reason that I love the indie web community. Passionate people building cool stuff - and some of it I want/need/must have!
If you want passion … take a look at what @dave does and writes and talks about. Separately, I was in 1999 … way back … and left … even before I came here. Why? That’s a different story.
None of us have a clear picture where Manton is going, all we can do is give him feedback. Some could be nicer without a doubt.
I still think some of the ‘backlash’ came from the promotion of the ‘big new feature’ ahead of time.
manton :
This is going to be a huge week for Micro.blog. Really excited about some of the things we’ve been working on.
In the absence of the road map - human nature is going to be finally he is going to deliver what “I” want. And of course, for the majority of us … it wasn’t.
For me, I love Micro.Blog enough to want to make sure that it doesn’t go away.
For it not to go away, Manton needs to have enough people paying $5 per month to support him and others to do what they do.
NO idea how many people are on the platform - much less paying $5 … but 2,000 paying customers would give him $120,000 a year …
If 10% (and I think that would be a generous count) were to pay an additional $5 for the podcast service, he has another $12K - if he doubled the number of users, he has another $120K.
BTW - unless I am missing something, free only lasts for 2 weeks doesn’t it?
@JohnPhilpin I think you can create an account, hook up your wordpress blog and continue to post to the platform, follow, respond etc. So that's the 'free' part I was talking about I guess - you get full control of what your site looks like, instead of being beholden to the 6 themes.
But yes, a simple and clear roadmap, similar to this one, would mean people are fully onboard for the ride. You can meander and the timing will be elastic, but at least you know what to expect, and you don't have to build up anyone's expectations.
@manton «We’ve recently finished these changes:» That was a lot of features! No need for GTD here! 😀👍
@hjertnes I don't think so, or at least not soon. I thought that posting to external servers was best handled by native apps.
@kaa @vishae I’ve sort of held off putting my 2 cents in here because I don’t mind the conflict. However one thing I feel like I should add is that while @Manton did put a lot of heart and time into building Wavelength (and adding support for Micro.casts on the platform), he also continued to make improvements to the platform. If you go back and look in both his timeline and in the Slack channels, you will see some significant improvements behind the scenes also occurred. (You will also see innumerable requests for help that he ALWAYS replies to.) One of the important things that I think often gets lost in these conversations is that by building Wavelength, the overall platform becomes more open, more interoperable, and the web slowly becomes what it should be. If people want to look at Micro.blog as a Twitter replacement then they will always be disappointed. To me, this is a pretty exciting place to be.
@cheesemaker Agreed. However, not everyone hangs out in slack, and not everyone has time to do so. I find it somewhat ironic and counter intuitive that a platform meant for public short messaging relies on Slack, but anyway. (My point here is that what's the point of M.b. if I have to hang out on slack to know some updates happened... It's one thing to use it for support/development, it's another if you are gona be announcing things there) Something akin' to release notes when updates happen, would be great, but that may be too much overhead. The what's next page is good too, but it's not dated correctly on top, so it looks old and it's something you have to keep going back to check (or even know it exists). @Manton does amazing amount of work and support for a single dev, but lot of people on M.b. never notice...
@oyam @cheesemaker In light of the points brought up by Mayo, I wonder what @manton and @macgenie would make of somebody making a hosted MB for posting release/update notes? I know people can be wary of volunteer-based information but my early impressions of the open web and IndieWeb culture is that volunteerism is to be encouraged.
@vishae Yeah, all the dates on the help site are creation dates. Makes sense to add a modified time too.
@vishae Have to say though, this kind of made me realize the merit of not having one as well. I wanted to just applaud/like his apology but since I couldn't, I actually replied.
Maybe the midway is to allow reactions only to replies so people can 'get behind' the replies but there needs to be some reply/engagement to begin with?
@vanessa that's odd, ADN had android apps from very early on. Granted they were third party, but they were very good. Dash in particular.
@mikedoeslife It did. It had Dash, as you say, which unfortunately crashed a lot for me, although I did like it very much. And Robin, also good. There were a lot more good iOS apps, though. Given the choice I used Felix or Chimp.