@bix Yeah, I have a post brewing in my mind about this…
I have a very Amish approach to technology. IMAP and Mail.app and my own domains/servers have worked well for me to 20+ years. Why change?
And, this may sound unkind but, here goes... I think people who use an email service versus hosting don't really care about email.
I really care abut it. Care enough to keep it in open standard protocols on servers and at domains I control.
I care enough that I want people to be able to email me at the same address for the rest of my life.
No features will ever outweigh that.
@patrickrhone Yeah, I don't care about email in that way; I care about how it feels to use it and I absolutely hate using email, but don't want to. I do think it's weird that it's completely locked down so you can't access it through IMAP at all. I'm not sure I see what's in these workflows that would preclude some underlying IMAP folder structure.
@canion So much of this can be replicated (or I have already) in Mail.app.
I have a post Brewing about this but... It’s really about love. When you love someone (something) you take the time to build a relationship. No relationship is perfect but you find a way to make it work for you.
This is true of everything.
My friend Garrick asked me, “What’s the common element acrosss all your bad relationships?”
The answer of course is “Me”.
If your relationship with email has never worked with any client you have, then the problem isn’t email or the client, it’s you.
Email services are built for people that don’t love email and never have and never really will.
@patrickrhone I feel like it might be true that the various "stacks" of things can be replicated in a standard email app, but that's distinct from the actual interface and field of vision. Watching the video, I feel like I would feel at least somewhat less overwhelmed at the prospect of dealing with email — it's not just the underlying organizational scheme but the actual experience that strikes me about Hey. (That said, I really feel like Hey ought to allow the underlying organizational stucture to still be accessible via basic IMAP, for "power" users who sometimes just go into their email the normal way.)
@patrickrhone Although now that I've said that, I do realize that I'm skeptical of The Feed, in that there's I guess no quick way to scan what's in it or even see how much is in there because it just had every email that goes to The Feed open in preview mode and you only have the "option" of scrolling infinitely past things to see what else it there? That seems unweidy.
@bix Well, for people that don’t love email or feel overwhelmed by it I can certainly see where Hey could make a difference in the way you are able to process it.
But I would still argue that the problem is, at the core, your feeling toward email and not the client or service you use. Find a way to repair that relationship and the client/service does not matter.
@bix @patrickrhone These are interesting points and I hope you don’t mind me joining in the discussion. I heard Jason Fried interviewed on Recode Decode yesterday and found it really illuminating. It looks like there’s a lot more to this service than another ‘snooze and filter’ app. Working to put more control with the user and help us be more intentional. I’m interested. Will watch the video. Thank you for sharing
@susan You are welcome.
For me, I’ve never not felt I had control. But, then again, I’ve always been an email fan, have used Mail.app since the first Mac OS X Beta, and already “built” many of the same workflows long ago. For example, Newsletters (Smart folder called “Reading”) and receipts, tickets, etc. (Smart folder called, “Reference”).
I did this because I not only love email but care enough about each one I receive to have an inbox that I’ve worked hard to make a sacred space for me already.
@patrickrhone This interesting conversation mostly made me realize that a lot of people experience email really differently. I like email, don't find it stressful, and would rather use it than any other messaging system to converse with people. As time has gone by I've eliminated all folders and labels. Now there's just stuff in my inbox which I look through and either delete (usually) or archive. Since search has gotten so good, I haven't felt the need to categorize my saved mail at all in order to find old messages. (I do occasionally "pin" a message in FastMail if I want it out of my inbox but think I may want to refer to it in the next week or two.) Am I alone in this?
@patrickrhone Thank you Patrick and all.
I wonder if much of our different experiences on this thread relate to our work roles? I work primarily with large governmental organisations in child protective services where, in general, people are not very tech-literate. Email is used almost as an audit trail and has been ‘over-embraced’ so deleting and missing things is serious. I teach about some of the methods to use and manage email but, to be honest, it’s very hard to fight this monster that’s been created and is led from the top. The poor practices are very deeply embedded in many organisations. As a result, out of control & mixed-topic email threads, coupled with indiscriminate cc use, means that even for me as an ‘outsider’ consulting with them, my inbox is a mess. Sanebox is brilliant but it’s not built to manage so much user-error. Neither am I 🙃. The ability to re-organise and title threads and retitling feature in Hey really interests me for this.
I’m also keen on their work looking at stopping trackers and creepiness in a cleverer way than spam filters. I gather they are going to open source this bit so hopefully other email providers will take up and build on this over time. One less tracker circling me to force purchase of mahabi slippers would be most welcome ☺️
@susan Thank you! Also to your earlier point about government, in Australia we have strict rules about email retention for the purposes of freedom of information where citizens can request the release of information. This leads to government email systems being strict, archaic, siloed and heavily governed. Hey would never pass muster for government use here.
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