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@JohnPhilpin link to article? Sounds interesting especially as someone who would probably be identified as a centralist.

@ChrisJWilson There you go

@JohnPhilpin It reminds me of Jay Rosen’s idea of “the view from nowhere.” I’ve come to see centrism as being fearful of taking a side. I have not read the book, but the article seems to indicate Urban has taken it to the next level by wrapping that fear in moral superiority.

@ChrisJWilson I would identify as a centrist too. I prefer to call it realist. It’s not the fear of taking sides but rather being realistic about making incremental changes (perfect is the enemy of good) E.g. I was team Hillary in 2016 @JohnPhilpin

@pratik (and others) ‘centrist to what?’ becomes the question. Me? I USED to be a centrist - and then ‘they’ moved the goal posts.

Win Every Argument is on my ‘to read’ list - sadly along with a large number of other books - but I think this one might edge up the list faster than others.

Commend you to seek out some YouTubes with Hasan talking to various people and interviewing others to get a flavor.

13 minutes at The Oxford Union

In interview with Jonathan Freedman

The guiding point that I have taken to heart is not to be afraid to take a position and argue your point. Too often we are forced into silence at risk of …. (fill in your own reason).

Funny, because when I was younger, I definitely had such spirit - but over time it has definitely been squelched (my bad), but in process of fixing it.

Also important to understand his position on why he would interview (say) a John Bolton - and wouldn’t go anywhere near a MTGreen.

@robknight i think centrism is a side - a winning side.

Then again - maybe I am not a centrist …

@pratik I think it’s possible to both be a pragmatist and a leftist. Leftism in terms of goals (say, universal healthcare), pragmatist in terms of methods (probably Dutch model of Obamacare with more generous subsidies).

@Bruce I very much agree with that approach.

@pratik @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley I see two types of centralism. Centralism by refusing to take a side which I’d say isn’t positive, and centralism by agreeing with aspects of critique from each side. I hope I’d be more of the later but I’m probably guilt of the former too.
That’s a great point about realism over change as well. It seems a good way to combine a philosophical drive for progress while being aware of the dangers of Chesterton’s gate type situations.

@ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley This is a great discussion. I definitely find more in common with the Left than the Right especially given where the Right is right now. In terms of my centrist views, I think I differ on the approach to achieving those goals. I was nodding hard when I read Don’t Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: The Essential Guide for Progressives.

@ChrisJWilson

I would agree, and count me in the side that takes sides … AND back in the day that was very possible, so I would have many a lively ‘debate’ with friends on all kinds of issues - often taking a position that was opposite to theirs - just to get to what they were thinking and build my own knowledge. Sadly that is harder to do these days (at least in my circles).

I also find it harder these days to support people on the right that have an opinion grounded in facts. (I get that some ‘facts’, depend on context - but not all of them.) Then again, maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

(PS : As I have got older, my thinking has also moved more to ‘the left’ - contrary to the trajectory of most people. Examples … as a student I was one of a handful of students in a ’lefty University that voted AGAINST a proposed rent strike - and I voted for Thatcher in her first election - these days, when I look at the very visible representatives of the right in both the U.K. and U.S.A. it is really hard to get behind them in any way and as for having any kind of meaningful discussion - just not possible.

// @pratik @rcrackley

@JohnPhilpin Oh, Americans with their colours the wrong way round on the left-right axis. It just causes confusion.

@devilgate oh yes - its odd isn’t it.

@JohnPhilpin @ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley

Great Thread - difficult to have these discussions in daily travels.

I too have moved left of center with age and maturity (have avoided being a “Centrist”) I prefer to base it on issues and not on ideology. I was a Reagan Republican. I grew up in Hawaii, but my Mom was on the far religious right (So. Baptist), my Dad was less so, but still on the right.

I’ve alway been a closet environmentalist, (came out in my mid 40s). I’ve taken more stock in science and economics and find it difficult trying to reason with people who are strictly idealogical. Hawaii is generally on the left, but has a strong business community that tempers it to a degree. I will and do take positions, but people I interact with daily are not inclined or are simply ignorant.

My Wife and I have lively discussions. She’s from No Dakota, her home state and family are almost off the charts far right. Luckily for me, we are are in the same place.

@pratik @ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley I grew up in a household in which politics and religion were not discussed much. Went off to college in 1987 and was assigned a short biography about MK Gandhi. I was intrigued by how disciplined he seemed to be. That he seemed to make a real effort to actively challenge and create his ethics in the context of the struggles he found himself in the middle of. His ethics informed his action and his action informed his ethics… and all of it revolved around the struggle for freedom of India.

Then, during my first year I became friends with a few folks in Amnesty International and the a campus peace group and started attending meetings. In my second year I discovered the Greens which seemed to put forth the idea of being neither left nor right. I liked the comprehensive approach they seemed to take and started spending time there.

Through the Greens I discoverd Murray Bookchin who wrote about “Social Ecology”. That resonated with me because it was a radical approach that eschewed conventional left/right politics and parties. I’d already come to the conclusion that party politics (in the US) seemed somewhere between broken and incomplete. But more than that, the system as it existed never really seemed to solve any problems. Just a back and forth with different band-aids being applied. Meanwhile Bookchin and the Greens seemed to want to dig deeper and get at the root cause of problems rather than play “politics as usual”.

By the time I was 25 I’d concluded that mainstream party politics in the US, the two party system, capitalism, and American culture in general were not at all friendly to the ideals I’d been told growing up were fundamental to the US, namely freedom and democracy. Of course, I also realized during that time that in actuality most of the adults in my family had little clue about what those terms actually meant.

I’ll be 54 soon and continue to exist “off the grid” in the sense that I continue to reject what seems a broken, inadequately defined view of the world. From politics to culture to the deeper social ecology (that term can mean a lot of things in this context), people generally seem to continue to be too preoccupied with the acquisition of wealth and property for themselves and their offspring. Citizenship in the US is a shallow exercise in ignoring our responsibilities. We long ago let ourselves be defined as consumers and generally seem content with that.

We have periods of upheaval that get the pot stirred up a bit, Occupy Wallstreet, Trump’s election and the cultural shifts before and after that have been the most notable. And it seems to me that we’ve reached a point in 2023 that the melting pot that is America has been stirred up enough now that it will not settle back down to anything resembling the previous decades of “normal”. It feels scary and difficult, stressfull and ugly. But it also seems like a long overdue reckoning with much that was swept under the carpet for decades.

So much to say. Probably best to stop here! 🤣

@Ddanielson Leftist CPAs unite!

@Ddanielson Thanks for the kind words Dave! I’ve tried to live them though sadly I’m afraid I’ve not made as much of the effort as I should have. Or, to put it another way, not much has come from my efforts. But really, being an “activist” is weird as it’s mostly a failed effort from the start and I think it’s best to not be attached too much to any idea of success or results which can also make sustained effort difficult. Why go on if no difference is being made? I think that’s where folks like Gandhi can be helpful as inspiration. Success or not, difference or not, just slowly push through and hope for the best.

I agree with you about changing the hard way and being in a state of emergency. It’s a hard truth to face and for many there’s still a kind of denialism in play. On a certain level many acknowledge the “situation” and yet, they’re still in denial about just how desperate the situation has gotten.

I read Callenbach’s Ecotopia early on in my explorations and found it helpful.

@Ddanielson @Denny @hawaiiboy @JohnPhilpin @devilgate @pratik @ChrisJWilson @robknight @Bruce @rcrackley
TBH, I missed the boat on being an activist, but with at least partial retirement looming, I may have to scratch that itch and make an annoyance of myself. I can afford to be more unfiltered.

@hawaiiboy @Ddanielson @Denny @hawaiiboy @JohnPhilpin @devilgate @pratik @ChrisJWilson @robknight @Bruce @rcrackley I long for a world where there is no such thing as activist. Where most everyone is just an active citizen in a more fully participatory democracy. But until that day arrives, yes, come on in, the water is warm! An upside is that if you can create or join a community of active local folks, well, it can be helpful in coping with the state of things. Even if “success” is elusive being a part of a larger community of folks sharing in the ideals and making the effort can be a joyful, celebratory experience. 😊

@Denny I’m paraphrasing, but Dan Carlin described it as wanting to believe in the myth the US tells about itself.

@Denny How are you currently active? I’d like to do more along those lines.

@josephaleo I’m not familiar with Dan Carlin but the US tells itself (and the world) many things. I’m still surprised it holds any kind of leadership role. I suspect largely based on the momentum built up post-WW 2, the Dollar and military spending. The flip side being the violence that serves as the foundation of US foreign policy and countless interventions over the years, all in the guise of supporting “democracy and freedom”. Of course the truth is that it’s never been about democracy and freedom but unfettered global capitalism.

@Denny Excellent ideas. Thank you!

@Denny Dan Carlin is the host of the excellent Hardcore History podcast. His podcasts are more like audiobooks. His most recent episode on Vikings clicked in at just over five hours. https://overcast.fm/+G0A2P_2nM

@josephaleo Subscribed!