JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

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ChrisJWilson
ChrisJWilson

@JohnPhilpin link to article? Sounds interesting especially as someone who would probably be identified as a centralist.

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

@ChrisJWilson There you go

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robknight
robknight

@JohnPhilpin It reminds me of Jay Rosenā€™s idea of ā€œthe view from nowhere.ā€ Iā€™ve come to see centrism as being fearful of taking a side. I have not read the book, but the article seems to indicate Urban has taken it to the next level by wrapping that fear in moral superiority.

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pratik
pratik

@ChrisJWilson I would identify as a centrist too. I prefer to call it realist. It's not the fear of taking sides but rather being realistic about making incremental changes (perfect is the enemy of good) E.g. I was team Hillary in 2016 @JohnPhilpin

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

@pratik (and others) 'centrist to what?' becomes the question. Me? I USED to be a centrist - and then 'they' moved the goal posts.

Win Every Argument is on my 'to read' list - sadly along with a large number of other books - but I think this one might edge up the list faster than others.

Commend you to seek out some YouTubes with Hasan talking to various people and interviewing others to get a flavor.

13 minutes at The Oxford Union

In interview with Jonathan Freedman

The guiding point that I have taken to heart is not to be afraid to take a position and argue your point. Too often we are forced into silence at risk of .... (fill in your own reason).

Funny, because when I was younger, I definitely had such spirit - but over time it has definitely been squelched (my bad), but in process of fixing it.

Also important to understand his position on why he would interview (say) a John Bolton - and wouldnā€™t go anywhere near a MTGreen.

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

@robknight i think centrism is a side - a winning side.

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

Then again - maybe I am not a centrist ...

McCarthy Centrist?

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Bruce
Bruce

@pratik I think itā€™s possible to both be a pragmatist and a leftist. Leftism in terms of goals (say, universal healthcare), pragmatist in terms of methods (probably Dutch model of Obamacare with more generous subsidies).

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robknight
robknight

@Bruce I very much agree with that approach.

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ChrisJWilson
ChrisJWilson

@pratik @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley I see two types of centralism. Centralism by refusing to take a side which Iā€™d say isnā€™t positive, and centralism by agreeing with aspects of critique from each side. I hope Iā€™d be more of the later but Iā€™m probably guilt of the former too. Thatā€™s a great point about realism over change as well. It seems a good way to combine a philosophical drive for progress while being aware of the dangers of Chestertonā€™s gate type situations.

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pratik
pratik

@ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley This is a great discussion. I definitely find more in common with the Left than the Right especially given where the Right is right now. In terms of my centrist views, I think I differ on the approach to achieving those goals. I was nodding hard when I read Don't Think of an Elephant! Know Your Values and Frame the Debate: The Essential Guide for Progressives.

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

@ChrisJWilson

I would agree, and count me in the side that takes sides ... AND back in the day that was very possible, so I would have many a lively 'debate' with friends on all kinds of issues - often taking a position that was opposite to theirs - just to get to what they were thinking and build my own knowledge. Sadly that is harder to do these days (at least in my circles).

I also find it harder these days to support people on the right that have an opinion grounded in facts. (I get that some 'facts', depend on context - but not all of them.) Then again, maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

(PS : As I have got older, my thinking has also moved more to 'the left' - contrary to the trajectory of most people. Examples ... as a student I was one of a handful of students in a 'lefty University that voted AGAINST a proposed rent strike - and I voted for Thatcher in her first election - these days, when I look at the very visible representatives of the right in both the U.K. and U.S.A. it is really hard to get behind them in any way and as for having any kind of meaningful discussion - just not possible.

// @pratik @rcrackley

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devilgate
devilgate

@JohnPhilpin Oh, Americans with their colours the wrong way round on the left-right axis. It just causes confusion.

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JohnPhilpin
JohnPhilpin

@devilgate oh yes - its odd isn't it.

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hawaiiboy
hawaiiboy

@JohnPhilpin @ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley

Great Thread - difficult to have these discussions in daily travels.

I too have moved left of center with age and maturity (have avoided being a "Centrist") I prefer to base it on issues and not on ideology. I was a Reagan Republican. I grew up in Hawaii, but my Mom was on the far religious right (So. Baptist), my Dad was less so, but still on the right.

I've alway been a closet environmentalist, (came out in my mid 40s). I've taken more stock in science and economics and find it difficult trying to reason with people who are strictly idealogical. Hawaii is generally on the left, but has a strong business community that tempers it to a degree. I will and do take positions, but people I interact with daily are not inclined or are simply ignorant.

My Wife and I have lively discussions. She's from No Dakota, her home state and family are almost off the charts far right. Luckily for me, we are are in the same place.

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Denny
Denny

@pratik @ChrisJWilson @bruce @JohnPhilpin @rcrackley I grew up in a household in which politics and religion were not discussed much. Went off to college in 1987 and was assigned a short biography about MK Gandhi. I was intrigued by how disciplined he seemed to be. That he seemed to make a real effort to actively challenge and create his ethics in the context of the struggles he found himself in the middle of. His ethics informed his action and his action informed his ethics... and all of it revolved around the struggle for freedom of India.

Then, during my first year I became friends with a few folks in Amnesty International and the a campus peace group and started attending meetings. In my second year I discovered the Greens which seemed to put forth the idea of being neither left nor right. I liked the comprehensive approach they seemed to take and started spending time there.

Through the Greens I discoverd Murray Bookchin who wrote about "Social Ecology". That resonated with me because it was a radical approach that eschewed conventional left/right politics and parties. I'd already come to the conclusion that party politics (in the US) seemed somewhere between broken and incomplete. But more than that, the system as it existed never really seemed to solve any problems. Just a back and forth with different band-aids being applied. Meanwhile Bookchin and the Greens seemed to want to dig deeper and get at the root cause of problems rather than play "politics as usual".

By the time I was 25 I'd concluded that mainstream party politics in the US, the two party system, capitalism, and American culture in general were not at all friendly to the ideals I'd been told growing up were fundamental to the US, namely freedom and democracy. Of course, I also realized during that time that in actuality most of the adults in my family had little clue about what those terms actually meant.

I'll be 54 soon and continue to exist "off the grid" in the sense that I continue to reject what seems a broken, inadequately defined view of the world. From politics to culture to the deeper social ecology (that term can mean a lot of things in this context), people generally seem to continue to be too preoccupied with the acquisition of wealth and property for themselves and their offspring. Citizenship in the US is a shallow exercise in ignoring our responsibilities. We long ago let ourselves be defined as consumers and generally seem content with that.

We have periods of upheaval that get the pot stirred up a bit, Occupy Wallstreet, Trump's election and the cultural shifts before and after that have been the most notable. And it seems to me that we've reached a point in 2023 that the melting pot that is America has been stirred up enough now that it will not settle back down to anything resembling the previous decades of "normal". It feels scary and difficult, stressfull and ugly. But it also seems like a long overdue reckoning with much that was swept under the carpet for decades.

So much to say. Probably best to stop here! šŸ¤£

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Ddanielson
Ddanielson

@Denny @hawaiiboy @JohnPhilpin @devilgate @pratik @ChrisJWilson @robknight @Bruce @rcrackley I grew up with parents who were Roosevelt Democrats. My Dad worked in the Civilian Conservation Corps, and my Mom in the Works Progress Administration (quitting school to help feed her family). They didnā€™t talk politics, but it was understood. There was also an evangelical religion that drove my sister to the right, and which I rejected.

I came of age in the late ā€˜60s and early ā€˜70s and I have always been left of center. I remember the first Earth Day, and the 1975 novel Ecotopia about an alternative way to build a society with solar power and a cooperative economy without greed. It was always a common belief that people get more conservative with age. Well, it was obvious for me from the ā€˜70s that this society of consumption and greed was not sustainable and that we need big change - not incremental.

The confounding thing here is that my parents lack of money and fear of Depression-era poverty led me to take up a conservative sort of profession as a CPA and finance guy. I suffered working in a bank during the first Gulf War with conservatives. I went into non-profit work and still when Occupy came along I was with a foundation pursuing investment earnings and not aligning with Occupy. We physically met in a building next to the NYC Occupy location. So, I played the money game while believing otherwise.

I greatly admire @Denny Henke living out his values. Iā€™m retired now, and conventionally financially secure, but am looking to finally act more on my long time beliefs. The facts have only gotten worse, and more quickly than imagined. I believe the moral thing to do is to change our society in a HARD way. I frankly only wish I had overcome some fears to live differently all along. I have talked my beliefs, and tried to influence things from the ā€œinsideā€, and I simply cannot see how people can assume that emergency action isnā€™t necessary. The resistance to economic change from even very socially liberal folks is painful.

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jabel
jabel

@Ddanielson Leftist CPAs unite!

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Denny
Denny

@Ddanielson Thanks for the kind words Dave! I've tried to live them though sadly I'm afraid I've not made as much of the effort as I should have. Or, to put it another way, not much has come from my efforts. But really, being an "activist" is weird as it's mostly a failed effort from the start and I think it's best to not be attached too much to any idea of success or results which can also make sustained effort difficult. Why go on if no difference is being made? I think that's where folks like Gandhi can be helpful as inspiration. Success or not, difference or not, just slowly push through and hope for the best.

I agree with you about changing the hard way and being in a state of emergency. It's a hard truth to face and for many there's still a kind of denialism in play. On a certain level many acknowledge the "situation" and yet, they're still in denial about just how desperate the situation has gotten.

I read Callenbach's Ecotopia early on in my explorations and found it helpful.

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hawaiiboy
hawaiiboy

@Ddanielson @Denny @hawaiiboy @JohnPhilpin @devilgate @pratik @ChrisJWilson @robknight @Bruce @rcrackley TBH, I missed the boat on being an activist, but with at least partial retirement looming, I may have to scratch that itch and make an annoyance of myself. I can afford to be more unfiltered.

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Denny
Denny

@hawaiiboy @Ddanielson @Denny @hawaiiboy @JohnPhilpin @devilgate @pratik @ChrisJWilson @robknight @Bruce @rcrackley I long for a world where there is no such thing as activist. Where most everyone is just an active citizen in a more fully participatory democracy. But until that day arrives, yes, come on in, the water is warm! An upside is that if you can create or join a community of active local folks, well, it can be helpful in coping with the state of things. Even if "success" is elusive being a part of a larger community of folks sharing in the ideals and making the effort can be a joyful, celebratory experience. šŸ˜Š

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josephaleo
josephaleo

@Denny Iā€™m paraphrasing, but Dan Carlin described it as wanting to believe in the myth the US tells about itself.

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MitchW
MitchW

@Denny How are you currently active? Iā€™d like to do more along those lines.

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In reply to
Denny
Denny

@MitchW So many ways to be active, many of them complimentary. In general I think of it as personal activism and community/social activism. Personal activism is what we can do in our homes as families or individuals. Personal activsm often consists of lifestyle changes. In terms of climate it ranges from food consumed, energy conservation, and in general choosing as much as possible to avoid consumption of goods and activities with a carbon footprint. Personal activism also includes making phone calls and writing emails or letters to lawmakers or others with any kind of access to power. Support for political prisoners can also be done in this capacity.

Community/social activism hinges on group organizing. I'm living in a rural area, 5 miles from a small town. Several years back I was a part of several town projects. First was a historical preservation, main-street revitalization project. Working with local business and building owners in various ways to preserve or revitalize the old buildings that make up our little downtown business district. In that same effort we also worked to support the local farmers market, did clean-ups and native flower box plantings. We were also looking at possibilities for introducing methods used by Rob Hopkins' "Transition Towns" to help communities plan for transitioning away from fossil fuels. Unfortunately the group no longer exists for a variety of reasons.

Another project, one that I started but which only got going just before Covid and which I've not kept going was a cycling advocacy project. These are great for small rural towns and really are needed everywhere. Lots of resources from larger National organizations as well as government. We did get some bike racks installed just before covid hit. The other plans were cycling safety classes, group rides in and around town, bike repair classes. Last, I'd met with the city and county to lobby for share the road signage, bike lanes, sidewalk improvements. A lot to be done in this area not only in regards to climate change but also public health and exercise.

If I were closer to a larger town or city I would be involved with a variety of community projects. When I lived in Memphis in the 1990s we had lively and vibrant tapestry of community projects: gardens, a bicycle co-op for teaching kids bike repair via bike recycling, a housing co-op, a micro radio station, zines, a community space for a zine library, meetings and workshops, Food-not-Bombs, publishing and art collectives. Ad hoc groups sprung up all the time for projects that might be needed for a short duration. So many possibilities in urban settings with more people nearby.

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Denny
Denny

@josephaleo I'm not familiar with Dan Carlin but the US tells itself (and the world) many things. I'm still surprised it holds any kind of leadership role. I suspect largely based on the momentum built up post-WW 2, the Dollar and military spending. The flip side being the violence that serves as the foundation of US foreign policy and countless interventions over the years, all in the guise of supporting "democracy and freedom". Of course the truth is that it's never been about democracy and freedom but unfettered global capitalism.

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MitchW
MitchW

@Denny Excellent ideas. Thank you!

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josephaleo
josephaleo

@Denny Dan Carlin is the host of the excellent Hardcore History podcast. His podcasts are more like audiobooks. His most recent episode on Vikings clicked in at just over five hours. https://overcast.fm/+G0A2P_2nM

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Denny
Denny

@josephaleo Subscribed!

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