People like me are too deep into the Apple ecosystem to ever reasonably leave. Until/unless they fully neuter macOS, I’m here for life. And I’ll realistically never use Android. But the next generation of users might use an iPhone, but they also rely on the web and services from other companies. They use Chromebooks. They don’t have a reason to “root” for Apple the same way I did as a kid. And that’s how platforms change and ecosystems fall off. https://mastodon.social/@film_girl/112955398796903001

@film_girl They lost me already, and I had been in the ecosystem for roughly 20 years.

Like a lot of 90s kids, I grew up on Windows at home but used Macs at school and switched to Macs in college during the 2000s. We bought iPods, not Zunes. MacBooks, not Vista. iPhones, not Windows Phones (or Windows Mobile). iPads, not Android tablets. But 2010s kids have other options. And Apple’s odious decisions like making macOS worse, being ratfuckers about the App Store (while still approving/promoting scam apps) doesn’t win over the loyalties of the next-generation of big-money users.

@film_girl or you could simply not use in-app payments for your Patreon subscriptions.

@film_girl I also think the “crush” ad is turning out to be a little more on the nose than Apple was hoping for

@Oshaughnessy I already do. It’s a symptom, not a specific action. It’s an aggregation of dozens of bad actions that will catch up in sentiment, even if it takes time for it to impact profits.

Already we see how these sorts of policies play out poorly for Apple: the Apple Vision Pro is so far, an expensive flop that has very few apps and has made its devs very little money (I’ve talked to many. Only a few have done “well”) and most are wholly unwilling to even build an app for it. These policies and decisions have downstream effects. There are consequences. Apple might not “see” them b/c they still print money, but they exist.

@film_girl I saw Blizzard go from a small, great company to their greed phase where everything in wow was punitive just to keep butts in the seat, to now where they have fair subs and ways to coax money out of players largely for fun stuff (not pay to win). Now that the bean counters are gone, the last two expansions have been about the player/customer and it is fantastic. I need to share this anecdote with Tim. This is his legacy. He should want to be more Jobs and less Amelio.

@film_girl Tim Cook is in the unenviable position of having to continually grow the largest company in the world in order to satisfy investors and has hanged his hat on commission fees to do just that. At its best, Apple is a premium brand with high end products that are attainable to the middle class. There is nothing premium about commission fees.

@film_girl Patreon said this was coming all the way back in December. Patreon made the decision to sell digital goods. Apple charges 30% for digital goods and subscriptions. Apple gave Patreon 11 months to build in IAP or risk removal from the app store. Patreon made a choice to move forward with this. Existing subscribers are grandfathered. New subscribers starting in November will be affected. Subscribers can still use the web. This isn't new, just new moral outrage.

@film_girl The damage due to dissatisfaction will be slow, but inexorable and substantial: We might be stuck for good in the Apple ecosystem, but we are also becoming increasingly reluctant to recommend (let alone evangelize) Apple’s products.

@film_girl @Oshaughnessy All things eventually reach the point of diminishing returns. But this regime will be gone before that point is reached.

Microsoft has spent the better part of the 15 years trying to win back developers and users post Vista. Sometimes succeeding (VS Code, which is just good software), sometimes failing (Bing), often fumbling with bad decisions (Recall), but despite being THE platform for games, people use Steam, not the Microsoft Store. People buy PS5s more than Xbox (and I love Xbox but it’s true). When vibes shift, users find alternatives. And they find them fast. Winning people back takes much longer.

@film_girl Every job worth a damn I've had as an adult has been Apple focused or outright because of Apple. (I worked at an Authorized Service Provider/Reseller for years, and now I'm an iOS Software Engineer.) So because of that, my general entrenchment in the ecosystem, and my Windows ME and 8 PTSD I am diehard for Apple's products and software.

But I'm honestly not sure if I can "root" for them the same way or in good conscience recommend them to people the way I used to.

@film_girl is it tim? Is it Schiller? Is it the board or Wall Street? It’s maddening because as they’ve gotten bigger, they’ve gotten both more boring and more hostile in so many ways.

@slessans2 again, I don’t care about Patreon in particular. But the way Apple does this is exceptionally greedy and comes across as exceptionally unfair to everyone except those that knew-jerk defend Apple at all costs (they aren’t going to fuck you). Patreon should just drop IAP. But Apple also shouldn’t leave them in a grey zone for TEN YEARS. Especially when Apple’s App Store policies have been the definition of capricious since its utter existence.

@film_girl I feel as though there is a very real chance of snatching defeat (reputation loss, intense but deserved public sector scrutiny, etc) from the jaws of victory (the halo effects of the iPod and iPhone combined with the fact that their hardware is largely just super excellent right now).

@film_girl The other unintended consequence is that whilst they focus on revenue from commissions they neglect the foundational products. Like you I’m all in on Apple@but nowadays I’m clear my motivation is because the alternatives are even worse. Not, as it used to be, because apple products and experiences were genuinely delightful. And in some cases “better than the alternatives” is a very low bar.

@film_girl But that's not what happened? Apple didn't leave them in a grey zone. Patreon changed its model. It was their choice. We wouldn't be talking about this if they had left the model alone. Agree or disagree with app store policies, but don't yell at Apple for Patreons decision.

@film_girl I totally forgot about the Apple Vision Pro. It feels like that was 5 years ago. Avoiding lock-in has become a much larger deciding factor for me when choosing a software or hardware.

@jamie_blumberg yup! It’s really, really hard. And it’s harder when the products themselves become worse every year. It would be easier to defend the bad policies if the products and software weren’t getting worse. Being better than the competition doesn’t change the fact that the products are getting worse.

@film_girl It me. Using a g3 tower with Final Cut in high school to an iBook and 1st gen iPod. Because of the creative empowerment. Now it’s in spite of.

@film_girl The crazy thing to me is that with a few exceptions, the actual hardware products are firing on all cylinders. Apple Silicon has been *great* for the Mac, the newest iPhones and iPads Air/Pro are solid, and while the Vision Pro just ain't it at least the hardware is impressive technically. (Software can be more hit or miss but I feel like we've had worse periods in recent memory, ie the discoveryd fiasco.)

But then there is the App Store, ads and policies part of the company 🙄🤬

@film_girl I would love it if there was an alternative mobile platform that wasn’t Google. But Apple is quickly sliding down to the same level of scumminess so maybe it’s a toss-up at this point.

@film_girl It reminds me of the adage about how bankruptcy happens: slowly at first, then all at once.

Apple is creeping towards failure by trying to maximize shareholder value at all cost.

@film_girl

despite being THE platform for games, people use Steam, not the Microsoft Store

Linux is a thing btw

@film_girl I still have so much captured onsite the Apple ecosystem. But as Apple keep making mistakes, I have found myself slowly choosing other options. Right now iPhone and Apple TV are the only things I still have with them, and I’m already seriously looking at non-Android Linux phones for one that’s close enough to make the jump.

@film_girl Super important here also is that “used Macs at school” isn’t something anyone after our generation will say. I teach in the last remaining Mac lab in a district of 400k people, and when I’m gone it’s gone too.

@luana I’m fully aware but the reason Linux has more gamers than Mac (low bar but still) is b/c of Steam and the Steam Deck and no one else. You still use Windows if you want to play most competitive games b/c of anti-cheat stuff. And 97% of Steam usage is Windows.

@huffles yeah, none of the non-Android Linux phones are worth a damn so I can’t even pretend that I’d make that choice. But if I weren’t entrenched both in hardware and software and my own decades of muscle-memory, I know I’d be much more open to alternatives. As it is, I use Apple b/c it’s better than the alternatives but the overall experience is worse than it used to be. And if I were a teenager today? I’d def be much less interested in Apple, even as an aspirational brand.

@unsoluble absolutely! Kids grow up on Chromebooks and Google accounts and web browsers. Way harder to instill brand loyalty when most of what you use is a web browser.

@film_girl
At a broader level, this could apply in many places including Boeing. Financial engineering taking precedence over product engineering.

@film_girl @luana Anti-cheat software is also getting ridiculous. I'm pretty sure we will soon(ish) have a big story about an anti-cheat software gathering user data and sending for advertising or something else, that will make people think a bit more about whether an anti-cheat software should have kernel level privileges, start when your computer is turned on and stay alive after you close your games...

@sgnj151 absolutely. When they let the lunatics at McDonnell Douglas take over and moved the corporate HQ, a lot of the company died. It took us years and years to see the rot but it happened nonetheless.

@ernie my god how did you do it? MacBook Airs, iPhones, a Mini, an Apple TV, an Apple Watch, and a frustrating only slightly integrating family of Amazon echo devices (we never went the HomePod route but I kind of want to just because I have ocd about matching stuff) also, seriously how did you leave it

@ernie @film_girl i don’t even see what that cost of leaving that ecosystem should be, besides buying a different laptop and smartphone…

And i actually did it twice when going from Linux to Mac, and back and forth and back again.

@film_girl Puts me in the weird position where I think some of the EU reg stuff is ridiculous and counterproductive while also rooting for the EU and others to kick them in the shins for being greedy and abusive.

@film_girl „success hides problems“

@film_girl Having the Game Pass include PC games put me on to the Xbox series X. That's huge value for me and my family.

@lazyb0y @film_girl I take it you don’t use many of the company’s apps or services

@film_girl

(Would you like to like this toot now?). ( Remind me later)

@film_girl The Xbox One was such a colossal disaster end to end. MS lost the gaming lead there, and it was a total self-own.

@film_girl I feel ya. Apple was Mom’s house. PC was Dad’s house. I’m on like my 15th Apple.

@film_girl As a multi-decades-long Mac user, I feel the same. Looking on the bright side, however, I think there is now the opportunity for an enterprising person to make a bit of money by bringing out a range of stickers: “I bought this (insert Apple product here) before Apple showed it had the courage to not give two shits about loyal customers as long as it squeezes every last dime it possibly can out of them”.

@film_girl I guess I’m old fashioned. Patreon works well on any browser for me and having less apps is a beautiful thing. I didn’t know Patreon had an app. I do love that Apple is evil but Patreon isn’t.

@film_girl Apple blocks more scam apps from getting in than what actually do get in. No company person organization or government is perfect.

@film_girl

Given that the Vision Pro was announced as a limited release with an outrageous price, it was unrealistic to think you could make money the first year from it. Any kind of investment by third parties should be made as a long term one, seeking a first mover advantage.

Apple has always have a culture of trying to do it perfect the first time, that makes them launch instant hits (iPhone) and absolute misses (round mouse). Microsoft's culture is a "third is the charm" one. They tend to try once, twice, and get it right the third. And they are much more enterprise oriented; they don't worry about consumer market or game market nearly as much as most of people think. For them, the real money is in Azure and enterprise contracts. And they are much more global; Apple is really big only in the United States. Globally, Android and Windows are kings, and Apple products a premium niche.

@film_girl The irony is that a big reason for Apple's success is avoiding this exact behavior. A major selling point in the iPhone originally was avoiding this sort of “everyone needs to take a cut" sort of bullshit, although at the time that was carrier and carrier partners, and it's why so many of us were willing to spend more on a phone at the time. It was "clean.”

@codinghorror @film_girl They took their foot off the gas at the end of the 360 era. No big releases of any kind, nothing but Kinect stuff: meanwhile Sony starts dropping the Last of Us and 3 Uncharted games. And that’s just one of their studios.

Xbone was the end result of that terrible strategy.

@film_girl I started out on an Apple IIe in high school and moved into Macs almost as soon as they were introduced. Stayed with them for years; even had a gen 1 iPod. Bad customer service and high prices for Apple products drove me away after that. I've tried using newer Macs, and the OS is utterly confounding and completely unintuitive to me, unlike old Mac OSs...I find them unusable. I don't pretend to love Windows, but I'm not going back to Apple.

@film_girl Windows 11 made me switch to a different platforms, which is a remarkable achievement because I lived through ME, Windows 8, and Windows 10. Trust is the easiest currency to spend and the hardest one to earn, and I don't give credit anymore.

@film_girl

The MacBook Pro is beautiful, efficient, and a delight to use. It costs more than I want to pay but nothing else is anything near as good. I wouldn't dream of buying a PC.

And that's all. I'm completely uninterested in any of their other over-priced nonsense.

@codinghorror if they had just committed to the always-on thing that would’ve offered a shaded cloud library of games no disc required and focused less on the tv stuff that was already passe in 2013, I think they could have had something great. Such a shame too.

@film_girl I don't see Apple changing its behaviour or its reputation under this leadership... maybe when Tim and Phil have both moved on?

@film_girl It really bothers me to spend money on things that are unethical. It's why I don't drive a Tesla or use Spotify. And at this point if I believed I could get all my photos and iCloud Drive items into something like Proton with 100% reliability I think I'd do it now. The tipping point is almost here and regulations won't save us.

@riggbeck totally — and honestly, they are so lucky the M-series chips are so good b.c the Touch Bar and keyboard from those models was real reputational damage that most companies don’t come back from. But people who bought Intel Macs (iMac notwithstanding) from 2016-2020 are understandably weary of ever buying a Mac again, especially people who that was their first Mac.

@film_girl astute and direct as always, Christina. My feelings are turning from buying all in on Apple because they make the product that prioritise what’s important to me, to feeling like I’m being held hostage by a company only interested in wringing more money out of me.

@TomasHradcky @film_girl Patreon don’t deserve the love you’re giving them either

https://mastodon.social/@jwz/112950204782168556

@film_girl @luana 100% agree, I was a mac user since the 128K, switched to Linux(Fedora) as my single boot desk/laptop OS, planning an Android migration this year. Probably keep an iPad around because droid tablets not great. #linux has a long way to go as a refuge for #macos users, #kde can help with muscle memory, the “it just works”(especially without the CL) is not even close to prime time. As a designer that doesn’t game, steam does very little for me.

@bgrinter @TomasHradcky @jwz I’m not giving them any love. My ire is at bad policies irrespective of whether I like Patreon or Substack. A bad policy is a bad policy.

@film_girl @TomasHradcky @jwz sorry was meant for the replier not you

Apple is starting to get a real ick Microsoft in the 90s feel, and Patreon have VC funderd to keep happy

Heard good things about ko-fi for creatives

@film_girl
I have used a lot of different development editors / IDEs, but I was introduced to VS Code a few years ago and find it to be among the best tools / software that MS has produced.

@film_girl I agree with everything you said in this thread. I’ve been an Apple/Mac user since 1989. I was an Apple evangelist during their difficult mid-1990s. I have been one of the ‘loyals’ for decades. But this Apple has been losing me as a customer and advocate in just a few years, for reasons that are so obvious I don’t feel like reiterating. It’s amazing that now I use Mac OS with the same ‘enthusiasm’ I had when using Windows for work years ago.

@film_girl What does it mean to be too deep in the apple ecosystem? Is it like, if you bought a different device it would not play nicely with everything else you own?

@film_girl I will say that as a School Teachers that is not exactly the best advertising for ChromeBooks.

How in your mind has macOS got worse? its been the shining spot of the ecosystem in my mind with apple silicon.

I do think the predatory App Store practices are burning so much good will.

@MurphysLawKY I think the “approve this” boxes Sequoia pops up are awful. A lot of the security theater stuff is. I think Stage Manager is an abomination. There are tons of usability deficiencies and regressions that have happened over the years that we become numb to the (imho) bad changes. Is macOS still better than the alternatives? Yes. Is it worse as an overall user experience than where it was a dozen years ago? For me, also yes.

@film_girl Have not tried the Sequia Betas yet so I will have to take your word on that.

I tried Stage Manager, at least you can disable it. The two Apple products I give the most love to are the mac and the Apple TV. I wouldnt mind switching phones (in fact to a phone like the Light Phone) but my wife will never leave and the notes app became a critical house management tool for us.

@film_girl If I do leave it’s either a minimalist phone or a Third Party Rom. Do not trust Google.

@film_girl 💯💯💯

@film_girl They've always been like this though. Not in the beginning maybe, in the age of the Apple II, but certainly at least since the whole iThisAndThat thing started. You can't even release an app unless you buy their compiler, which has to be running on their OS, on their hardware. Of course they jack up the price on all of it. I'm surprised they get away with half the shit they do.

But they always have and they still have die hard fans-I don't get it. Must be the subliminal messages

@film_girl I would argue that Microsoft isn't trying to win back developers and users and is instead trying to gain more control over them.

If they wanted to win people back, they could drop the TPM and Microsoft account requirements from Windows 11, bring back the mature start menu people like, and eliminate ads and data collection.

Microsoft knows how to make software people love. They just choose not to sometimes. Same as Apple.

@ernie @lazyb0y @film_girl But really, like what?

I’ve often wondered about Gruber’s question on what Apple device I would least want to lose. It’s my iPad mini — precisely b/c it’s the one I use almost solely for me during downtime. Read books, a little surfing, a little messaging. Ride some Zwift.

I’d miss exercise history on watch & phone. I’d have to move photos somewhere. But there’s no service I GOTTA have.

What’s the lock-in I’m missing?

@ruffin @lazyb0y @film_girl It can get expensive to replace apps in a new ecosystem, as many of those apps are unique to specific platforms. You also get a degraded experience if you try to use Apple’s services on another platform.

I have an Apple Card that I got to pay for my MacBook Air M1. I use an Android phone. It is a total pain in the ass.

If your stuff is on iCloud or a similar Apple specific service, it is very inconvenient to leave/transition.

@ernie @lazyb0y @film_girl Idk. I also have the Apple Card. Nice app. Don’t gotta have it.

There’s no app I use that I haven’t been able to find a good, usable near-equivalent replacement on Android or Windows. Not always as well designed, but solid, usable apps. (Though I also used Windows Phone for a while when that was a thing, just for fun, so there’s that. ;))

If your mileage varies, I’d be interested to hear what apps lock you in.

@ruffin @lazyb0y @film_girl You’re asking the wrong person. I am someone who has been using Android since 2019, though I moved my Mac out of full-time rotation last year.

But I think what I miss most is:
- iA Writer
- Adobe apps
- A good videoconferencing experience built for transcription (Krisp in particular is missed)
- Third-party apps like TextSoap, Alfred, and BetterDisplay

But the thing is the average person (read: non-tech) is likely more dialed in than you’re giving credit for.

@ernie @lazyb0y @film_girl I have wondered if it’s b/c I’m overly technical, but Warren’s no slouch either. 😉

But yes, I’ve invested decades in learning vi. I’m never going to try emacs. I’d bet there are some who know macOS or Windows well but have no desire to take years to learn the intricacies of the other nearly as well.

But given tech proficient (Warren), why the locked in feeling? I don’t get it. 🤷 But I’m curious!

@film_girl before recently I thought that the problem was for Apple to find a way to be more attractive for video games… but now they seem determined to alienate everyone.

@film_girl @codinghorror do you think #Valve can break the monopoly of PC gaming. By enforcing #SteamDeck compatibility for any game published on Steam, Linux, on the long term will be able to run everything and could take over Windows since gaming is the last remaining lock :thinking:

@ernie @film_girl that’s actually true for the desktop, and the device/platform were thats not true is the iPad with many music apps i use and in which i invested a few hundred euros.

but im not impossibly hard bound to a single ecosystem, rather im cross-ecosystem, using the platform that is best for the usecase at hand.

@ernie @ruffin @film_girl the iCloud thing is true, they totally lock you in there and don’t offer good connection on other OSes.

but i don’t see how it’s impossibly hard to move to dropbox.

Expensive is interesting, as a mac with big storage is extremely expensive and if i need a laptop with 64GB RAM and 4 or even 8TB storage i can buy a lot of new apps from the money i save with a e.g. framework laptop and self-bought and replace RAM/nvme

@film_girl I’m wondering, don’t Phil / Craig / Tim read any of this feedback? There’s no shortage of people who’ve been venting about the way things have been going and there’s no stopping it. Infuriating.