Just a reminder to my fellow old white men: shutting the fuck up is always an option.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/may/06/richard-dreyfuss-says-oscar-diversity-rules-make-me-vomit
@fraying It's my new go-to move, and I think I love it. It's so easy (once you get to used to not having to have an opinion about everything and overcome centuries of cultural conditioning that the only people who can have valid opinions are white dudes - absolutely no big deal).
If you're a beloved famous person from a previous generation, ask your doctor if Shutting The Fuck Up is right for you.
(Side effects may include continued cultural relevance, ongoing appreciation of the youths, and future invitations to all the cool parties.)
@fraying He’s wrong on the face of it. Billy Crudup played Othello in STAGE BEAUTY in 2004. Not the whole play, but significant scenes. (It’s a great movie, but he wouldn’t like it. Ironically, it’s about the character Claire Danes plays trying to be a woman allowed to play stage roles.)
@fraying agreed, but anyway, fuck the oscars, right? Turning art (well, sometimes art) into something competitive feels very wrong.
@fraying i like that the G had to correct their jewish sterotype, but didnt have the balls to not use a euphemism…very end of the article…if anyone ever ends up all the way down there anymore…
@fraying I don’t care that he is old and white. He is a million other things as well, as are you. And I agree with him: making rules to represent the under-represented means someone (you? me?) knows what the “right” representation is. It is white mans’ burden to save the savages. Fuck that.
[ edit: added a question mark after “you” in parentheses, and “ me?”. ]
Having grown up in a system where not shutting up was dangerous, why are you worried he has a different opinion? I think everybody should go live for a few years in a country where having the wedding opinion is not only immoral, but illegal. You'll appreciate having people who disagree with you being able to freely do so when you get back. Even if you think they are extremely wrong.
@rednekulo Exactly.
All: If you want to gather some grass roots facts, be white and go ask some black folks if they want your help. Go ahead. I’ll wait.
Oh I see this is going to be another one of those excellent honeypot posts for assholes to reveal themselves. Step right up to be blocked, guys.
If you are so offended by the suggestion that the world doesn’t need another old white guy talking about how things were better before everyone else got to have some time in the spotlight, too, just fucking unfollow me now and maybe think about it more. I don’t need to hear it. It’s practically all everyone hears all the fucking time.
Equality isn’t oppression, you fucking morons. It just feels that way because the game has always been rigged in your favor.
@bkryer …and if you’ve read this far, maybe take a break, have a KitKat or, in my case, some collie!
He just lost whatever respect I had for him. I'm sure he doesn't care.
And NO ONE IS PUNISHING YOU FOR WHAT YOU THINK. We all think stupid things sometimes. Adults have the strength to know when to shut up and let other people speak, especially the people most involved with whatever we’re talking about.
@fraying I doubt you’ve given enough thought to this topic. I know I havent.
And I doubt that this thread is the right place to hash this out. I suppose I do need to shut the fuck up and actually compose my thoughts (coherence as a courtesy!) so we can see if we have anything to actually talk about.
In brief: Equality of what? Identity? Outcome? Harrison Bergeron is instructive here.
@daniel_meyers Yeah I pretty much never want to hear what an actor has to say about anything. They're paid to be charismatic and say things other people wrote for them.
When you say the stupid shit out loud to a reporter, then it's fair game to criticize. And when you step up to defend the famous rich guy for saying something stupid, you're just revealing how much stupid is in your own head.
@daniel_meyers Wow, do you consider this insightful? Have you an idea how the industry works? To me it seems someone with years of experience has an opinion that doesn’t fit through your allowed speech sieve so to hell with expertise it is my feelies which count here.
And as far as who should STFU goes, man, the list is long, right? How many people are feeding idiotic poison into the ether all day everyday, at factory speeds?
But this one guy says “Hey, loser admin types, morality police, everyone really, including other artists, don’t tell artists what to do. Period.“ That is admirable. In fact, I’m going to say it again.
DON’T TELL ARTISTS WHAT TO DO.
[ edit: the fc&*ng apostrophes! ]
@fraying
The first press conference on the Allen TX Mall shootings made me think of the attached meme. Not an ounce of empathy shown, not an ounce of grief.
Hah! I'd love to see more Jewish actors playing more Jewish roles. I think that'd be a TREAT!
Of course, Jewish guys like Albert Brooks always make movies where they get a WASP lady love because they're just too big and important to rate less. So I guess making that mandatory would really suck... for them. :P
@kims an award, in my book, gotta be about the art, not someones idea BEFORE hand about what the art would be. Hey, better have more papaya in your Yukon adventure. I like papaya. Otherwise, forget about the professional acclaim and all that goes with it. I told you, papaya.
@fraying *nodds in agreement*
Also people who have to reduce their identity to "whiteness" are the biggest loosers since they literally achieved nothing on their own worth mentioning.
Like graduating highschool or having a drivers' license...
@bkryer Yeah it's about how old white men have too much visibility and not nearly enough of value to say.
@xenophora hey, you don’t know me. don’t talk to me like that. your talk sounds like cryptic-anti semitism. Sorry if I have that wrong.
@scottytrees Whenever people do that, I reply with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G19B7lTgwCE&t=14s
@HLGEM can you not see how saying that this one specific group hasn’t enough of value to bother hearing their speech is the problem.
It is EXACTLY WHY we wrote a constitution (before internet, go figure) telling everyone in no uncertain terms that we think it is better if everyone can speak, and if you don’t think so you’re gonna have a hard time. I don’t agree with 99% of the shit I hear everyday, but I’m not trying to pull the emergency brake all the fucking time, either.
And, btw, allowing the maw of western capitalism to spew out some other new “top dog” (pick your race/gender/zipcode here) isn’t winning, and it isn’t equality, and it isn’t reparations.
What it is, is the same f8ck face middlemen (persons!) making a buck of giving you those warm feelings in the belly by telling you the most conveniently compelling lies about your moral superiority, which is a result of your identity of course. See, they say, your right because of who you are!
All the murder and homelessness and great AirBnB’s, all the gender hate and race hate and hate hate, half price if you sign up for the whole year, ALL OF THAT is not as important as ensuring, through prudent legislation, that Guatemalan mechanics and Burmese veterinarians are no longer excluded from our national conversation. You’re soaking in it.
@xenophora Then I don’t EVEN understand what you are trying to say. I’m sorry.
I guess it is difficult for me to determine in your comment “because they’re just too big and important to rate less” is sarcastic or not, which would make it important to know what, exactly, you mean by “they” in it.
@xenophora You have attacked me personally, twice, as quick as a wink, which tells me a lot about you. But here, honest attempt to move to understanding, and…
@bkryer Your words appear to be English but they make no sense n context of the conversation.
What I am saying is that white men have dominated the conversation for hundreds of years and it is time the STFU and let the rest of us have a turn. I was silenced for decades, now it is your turn.
@HLGEM for 2 reasons, a) race is a stupid concept, and b) taking turns at getting f*cked over isn’t justice.
@bkryer bkryer thinks to himself “man, I am going to get shredded. race no good? they’re not gonna like it.”
@daniel_meyers I’m actually making a point. Do you have one? Do you know what I mean by “making a point” ?
I’m getting really tired of all the junior high tough guy flexing on this subject here.
I'm always worrying about how holding and expressing left wing views might affect my employment opportunities.
Celebrities like this seem to have never had to worry and what they say and do, so will cry foul play at any minor inconvenience they might have to face, even when that "inconvenience" is just being respectful to other people.
@benx Left, right. You’re bound to get sh*t either way. And that is a child-like understanding of celebrity, cherish it.
@fraying It seems pretty clear to me that no-one here is really up to actually trying to talk about this, which makes me think I’m the asshole for trying. If that should change, you know where to find me.
If "child-like" is supposed to be an insult then I am not insulted. Children tend to be much more open minded than adults are.
@benx Simply an observation. I too cherish those rare moments I believe to have an unpolluted experience similar to what I can piece together from memories of childhood experiences.
As far as this other bullshit is concerned, I think celebs might “seem” that they are immune to what normies must suffer, but I can assure you from lived experience and testimony of others that they are not different from you and me in anyway, apart from their luck/skill/work that has them doing a job everyone pays a lot of money to have around.
And don’t be so open minded as to have things falling out of there 🤯🤕🙂😜
[ edit: changed “do“ to “don’t” in that last sentence, which, considering the sarcasm fog which seems to shroud conversations lately, doesn’t really change the meaning, you see? ”Don’t“ and it is genuine advice, “Do” and it is the same advice expressed as sarcasm. ]
[ edit: there is a very good chance I have over-thought this, not that I would ever stop at that conclusion…]
Dreadfully sorry that I didn't qualify my comment with "not all celebrities".
@benx Ach, this is just another part of the friction that must be smoothed before folks can actually start making sense of each other.
Apropos: of course celebrities are different from normies in that regardless of the state of their melanin levels, hair structures, or genitalia, many have achieved a social class with benefits that are, especially in these last decades, disproportionate in the way that CEO and pro athlete rewards are.
So, yeah, details, devils.
You might face less friction if you are less condescending from the outset. Just an idea.
@benx Well, you might bristle at this response, but I am responding in kind to the condescension I’m sensing. Not from you benx, not at all, but on the regular elsewhere and often. As are many others, I imagine.
btw, I thought you were going to go for that old standby. “I don’t mean to be condescending to you…you know what condescending means, right…?”
Yeah, you got me! “…know what a point is…” from earlier. Well, I thought it was okay to get some sarcasm sauce on my bib considering the over all tone of smug superiority dripping from these sorts of “Look → badness!” so called conversations.
Ok, well, of you want to have an actual conversation about this topic, I chat for a bit. But I might stop responding if I get bored or life gets in the way.
I really do not think conservative views are punished as much as "left wing views" (by which I don't just mean neo-liberal identity politics).
And a white man in lead roles in the 70s, will have definitely had a very different lived experience from women and people of colour in the same industry at that time. Most definitely.
@benx re: Constraints. Totally get it. My DNA might actually have a gene for “flakiness”.
re: Punished? Who is punishing whom?
Different experiences. Of course. And so different, very different, ideas of how to express respect? Yeah, I can make some sense of that.
@benx …and in reply to your question, plenty, but I don’t want to compare browser histories, or worse, your library vs. mine.
[ edit: “…don’t want to…” Jeez, I had at least three tries to turn gibberish into thought transcription but I’m still here in the editing pit…]
@benx Can we perhaps talk about this concept you introduced “punishing certain media”. I would like to better understand what I think about that so a little back and forth might be a payoff for me.
Let me just take my own advice and tell you what I think so far.
That we think it’s worth talking about the premise that media can be punished already puts us in the top 1% globally, as far as free time out the ass as far as the eye can see. I say that so you know I have a hard time just getting started with these.
But whatevs, we shouldn’t be afraid of our own strengths, our own power, right?
So, (in the USA) we’re told by the right that the left is trying to trick us. And we’re told the same by the left. And both tell us that some media can be trusted, but not other, and the media, and the other media, tells us it is all desperately exciting, occasionally existentially so.
No-one talks about things outside of this arena of rhetoric. By silent class agreement, I’ll argue.
So, what is the too long don’t read summary of all that ascii?
Punishment can only be seen as performance at those levels. It has nothing to do with regular notions of justice, pain, reform and retribution. Great TV tho.
Holding your hand would be trying to explain centuries of oppression that still has an effect and impact today on people's lives.
When I say "lived experience", I don't just mean different ideas about respect, I mean having to face different barriers, different struggles.
I read the book Uncommon Wealth very recently, for example, which points out, very clearly, certain political decisions that were made for racist reasons that continue to have impact on people's lives today.
Another book I just started reading, called Palo Alto, also begins with a chapter on how racism played a role in the colonisation of California (and the rest of the United States) which again still has still an impact on people's lives today.
I can think of so many examples of how everyday life is harder for women and people of colour, in general*.
And so I am puzzled as to why you might not be aware of the differences in lived experiences certain people have to face as a result of their sex or race.
*not all of them!
@HLGEM Please have something to say before letting your fingers wiggle like that. Who or what is smarter by some distance? Who is the sad man? Don’t talk in riddles please.
So far your contrib is a picture of a sticker, to complain about history, and to suggest a solution to our problems would be exchanging oppression costumes.
Stop. Think.
By "left-wing views", I'm talking about people losing their low paid jobs (or in some countries even being assassinated) for union organising.
When I said "celebrities like this" earlier, I was referring to a whole number of people, whose views are currently being widely shared in the media, that seem to have to a tendency to complain about being punished and censored for their conservative views (which can involve losing jobs or positions) but only face a minor inconvenience when compared to others.
Generally speaking, the people in this world with the most wealth and power have conservative views. And so, I would argue, if you also have conservative views you are less likely to face issues with employability. And would be less likely to struggle as a result of losing a job because or certain political views you might hold.
@benx I can’t believe you and so many others have such a hard time understanding this.
>“puzzled as to why you might not be aware of the differences”
You are judging me based on nothing but your notions of who I might be and a few hundred lines of text. It is repugnant.
You have no idea who I am, not my race (bullshit concepts can have limited utility), not my gender, nor my gender expression, not my age, or nationality, or ethnic heritage, or education. None of it. Maybe a cursory web search to validate your opinion. You read my blog. That’s enough, surely. I say all kinds of odd things, shouldn’t be too difficult to deliver a little embarrassment bonbon to your hungry acolytes. “Can you believe he said this….!!”
You are diminishing everyones experience by saying things like this:
> “…I can think of so many examples of how everyday life is harder for women and people of colour…”
Harder than your life? Harder than mine? There is way too much variability in the human experience for this urgent generalization horse-shit to hold any water except in the most refined and well ventilated salons. Look at us helping the savages.
Most have probably written me off long before this post, and probably before this paragraph, and as much as I hate to appear thirsty to get my street cred morality passport stamped by impatient whiny self-appointed protectors of the borders of truth, I can say the following:
Because of the particular facts of who I am, the physical truth of my existence, and the sort of activities I’ve gotten into over the years, I have seen both sides of these equations, in real actual in this moment right fucking now situations, and it is ugly all around. Racism, sexism, ageism, gender-ism, nationalism, all of it. It all corrupts outward and eventually produces threats of violence and then actual violence. They are the kind of ideas that consume all the thought around them.
And they all, without exception, stem from the misuse of language, whether through ineptitude or malice.
And that’s why I’m such a c_nt about it.
@benx I’m getting a little out of sync with your backs to my forths (or is it the other way around?) and I’m sounding a bit more aggro than needed, considering I am safely in a room sitting in front of a piece of glass with a keyboard.
I do want to comment on your last…but I’ll wait a bit…
And I respect very much your patience and tenacity to have stuck with it this long.
I need to go do some things for a bit. But another reply is in the works.
I do just want to say, for now know, that can't speak for others and why they post what they do, but if the only reason I wrote posts on here was for likes and popularity then it's been a fucking terrible strategy so far.
Actually, I need to go to bed. I'll probably get back to you with a fuller response tomorrow.
@bkryer Let me tell you about my experiences with white men and jerks like you.
White men are the ones who raped me, twice.
White men are the one ones who sexually assaulted and sexually harassed me at work more times than I can count
White men are the ones who groped me as a pre-teen, more times than I can count.
White men are the ones who catcalled me every single time I was in public for decades.
White men told me that I could not be promoted because white men would not be willing to work for a woman.
White men told me that they could not promote me because it was not my turn and it would not be my turn unless there were no more white men to promote ahead of me.
White men stole my ideas at work and took the credit including the monetary rewards.
White men have treated my like dirt under their feet for decades.
White men took more roles in entertainment media than their population percentage justified, making sure that I had no role models who looked like or felt like me.
White men hid that women worked in things like the space program so that little girls like me would not aspire to do the same.
White men interrupted me and talked over me in every meeting I was in for decades. White men refused to acknowledge my presence in the room even when I was the team leader.
There, is that enough content for you because I can go for days if you want to know why white men need to sit down, shut up, and let others have their fair share.
@HLGEM Sorry. Sorry all that fucked up shit happened to you. Really, like I said earlier elsewhere, I’ve been on both sides, as much as that is possible.
And I get that I don’t and can’t really totally get it. I can’t have your experiences, nor you mine.
Still, to say that the entire class of white men need to sit down and shut up is childish nonsense.
And it has nothing to do with you getting your fair share, or anyone else, their’s.
Did you see what I posted before about power and strength? Think about it. They are not the same thing.
My current strategy vector is this: Fuck all those stupid white men. And the white women by the way, too, an often ignored intersection of jerkdom. Lot of jerks that happen to not be men, and now that I think about it, many not white. Huh. Assholes across the spectrum of humanity, not a surprise, still a disappointment.
In fact, looking back quickly over centuries of history we see that white men have the market cornered, and still do, on being complete fucking dick wads when the mood suits them only because of historic accident, not superiority of any meaningful measure, not by divine providence, just flipping chance.
Which, if you don’t get my whole implication schtick, means you, we, can do something about it. You’re soaking in it.
Just a side-note: When I grew up, watching a lot of tv as kids of my era often did, some of my biggest heroes were women. Who am I kidding? It is still true today. Mary, keeping her writer hubby in check, then working at a news station. Marlo, being the girl before the new girl. Maureen deflating Carrol. Sass-a-matic Bea. That is to say Mary Tyler Moore, Marlo Thomas, Maureen Stapleton, Bea Arthur, they represented what was happening with women in a way I could appreciate, could understand. And characters like these still do. Still are. Have you seen The Morning Show?
Anyway, shit fuck goddamn it, sorry you had to go through all that. And I’m sorry that so many who superficially look and sound like what I look and sound like treated you as they did. It is so amazing that folks can still smile at strangers. I hope you still can.
@HLGEM Good gravy. Here’s the I-thought-about-it-before-I-posted-it version:
I maintain that it is not white men that are a (the) problem per se, but ‘whiteness’ and ‘masculinity’. Our understanding of both these terms which confuse our communications and incense our emotions.
Anyway, sorry if I ignited anything painful. And thanks for taking the time to tell me what you thought and felt. It’s the whole point really.
@clouddweller Totally. I remember enjoying both StakeOut movies, and What About Bob is a classic in my book. But to fixate on his opinion about an industry he is at the far, far end of is just silly posing.
@HLGEM So passion and then nothing, eh? Rereading your rhetorical screed, it seems to me odd to refer to it as “content”, especially considering the emotional depth those first couple of points touch. Talking about rape and then taking about population percentage as justification for employment in some industry—well, it comes off as calculating. So what’s up?
@fraying Yes, you have.
You could use your clout to illuminate, to point to something better, rather than play the stupid game of pointing to “badness” and shouting “Hey, look at that badness! It’s not me! I’m good good good.”
It’s the hipster version of thoughts and prayers.
@bkryer So maybe it means that I have many, many reason for finding people like you to be offensive. Of course you try to minimize. BTW it is not calculating, it is soul deep anger. Because I;ve been raped, I'm not allowed to be angry about other things? What an an outrageous argument.
@HLGEM fuck man, no one is saying you’re not allowed your feelings. But I’m not one of those fuckers who did any of that shit. Hi. I’m BK. You just met me. Just because I have a penis doesn’t mean I’m a rapist, just like having a womb doesn’t mean you are a baby factory.
@HLGEM And what do you find offensive about me? Really, you haven’t a clue. If I wrote off every group because one of the group members was a bad actor, well my social world wouldn’t be one. And that’s what makes you sound like a dogma automat.
@HLGEM Do you get what I’m on about? I agree with you that men, as a class, have a lot left to be desired. Encouraging them with good swift kicks to the buttocks on the regular is not beyond the boundaries of decorum.
But I’m not men, I’m just me.
@HLGEM And as far as rhetorical impact is concerned, when you lead with “my body was violated in extremis” then end with “and some of us don’t get to be in movies”, well, it dilutes the force, and more dangerously, invites assholes to dismiss the whole of what you’ve said, what you’ve lived, based on some semantic bullshit.
Remember these asshooles (well-schooled assholes) don’t really stand for anything, so they lurk, waiting for the chance to decontextualize your statements to turn them into treats for their acolytes.
@HLGEM Well, thank you for establishing, like a few others who stormed in here from mastodon land, your intellect and intent.
@bkryer Odd, this is Mastodon, so we didn't storm in her from Mastodon land. Did you mean Twitter? Well, that is a stupid assumption too as I have never been a Twitter user.
You know when you attack someone else's intelligence, it behooves you to be factually correct. Or you just look pathetic.