Oh my god he is sooooooo wrong ….
More on this on Tuesday.
@devilgate Its live - feel free to comment - disagree - rail on me in the space provided on the site - or here :-)
@simonwoods Its live - feel free to comment - disagree - rail on me in the space provided on the site - or here :-)
@JohnPhilpin A lot of what you said makes sense. The same with Robin. The sheer scope and nuance of these issues is... overwhelming. Or at least it can be easy to feel overwhelmed, especially for the uncomfortably large portion of the populace for whom English history is little more than a basic idea.
The more we talk about it -- face-to-face is best and if it's on the web then it should be blog-style posts rather than social media conversations -- the more likely we are to resolve our issues. And I mean truly talk; put aside your ego as much as possible, take the time to listen and think about the things you hear, and continue to speak honestly and trust each other, kind of talking...
@simonwoods all good ... and agree on real conversation ...
That said, there is sufficient proof that Brexit was loaded with lies and posturing ... and people had no idea of the consequences ... so a second vote by the people with what the options really mean shouldn’t be that hard ... but we get ‘the people have spoken’ crap.
BTW ... have you watched this ...
Finally ... my issue is really about England, and the horseshit that goes on about the English flag being a symbol of the far right loonies and extremists ... as I am oft brought to say ...
”power of the few will be assumed through the inaction of the many.”
So if we do nothing ... then so will it be and wiser people need to not take the short cut ... and not think ... as per Robin ... but explain ....
@JohnPhilpin It's delusional to think that there will be no economic consequences for the UK should the UK go though with Brexit. Just as Germany incurred economic consequences in reunification with East Germany. In the short term it set them back about 10 years (although long term the gains outweighed it). Likewise, I think Bexit will cause a decade of economic hardship for the UK while things get sorted.
That said, the the doom and gloom posturing from the EU will prove to be just that - posturing. A post Brexit EU will have to come to an accomodation with the UK, the UK is too big to ignore. The scary parts are in the unknown. The EU is terrified that Brexit will cause the re-Balkanization of the continent of Europe and that it will expose the inherent weaknesses in the structure of the EU
And for the UK there will be a lot IF's to overcome post Brexit: IF the UK can negotiate trade agreements with America, Canada and a good chunk of the Commonwealth; IF the UK can relearn to mass produce cars, trucks, trains, etc. without importing Germans to do it for them; IF the UK can identify it's own many strengths and build on them. It's a daunting set of tasks but every hardship also presents opportunities.
My point is, it is easy to blame the pro brexit vote on lies - and their were lies, no doubt about it. But there were also lies coming out of the pro EU camp as well. Consider this: maybe the "old folks" who voted for Brexit were trying to pull the UK back from the brink. Maybe, they love, those "ancient rights of Englishmen" above a full coin purse and don't see how those ancient rights can survive in a proposed United States of Europe? Maybe their motivations are not a simple as they are painted in social media?
Just something to think about.
@JohnPhilpin I agree with you wholeheartedly on most of your points. I am half English & was brought up in England. I am also proud of the UK & describe myself as British (the other half of my heritage is Welsh). I grew up in the North East, but spent many years in London and have seen the wider and wider disconnect between London & the rest of England. I’ve also seen the ridiculousness of the “northern powerhouse” which does precisely zero for half of the north. I have very much enjoyed the multicultural nature of London whilst at the same time felt like a stranger in my own country. The Brexit vote was very much a 2 fingers up to the Establishment. Yes, there were lies, but on both sides. Personally, I dislike intensely the way the EU is heading and the way it conducts itself today, even. But I really don’t like the current trend of having to be ashamed to be proud of being English. It’s part of a wider overcompensating political correctness, though - “Easter worshippers” in Sri Lanka? Can we no longer call people Christians?
It’s part of a wider overcompensating political correctness, though - “Easter worshippers” in Sri Lanka? Can we no longer call people Christians?
I think President Obama’s intention got lost somewhere along the way—rather than “overcompensating political correctness” trying to “hide” Christians, his intent almost certainly was to emphasize the gravity and heinousness of the massacres. This was not just some attack on Christians, somewhere, or at a church, on any given Sunday; rather, it was an attack while they were worshiping on the holiest of Sundays for Christians, the most terrible and vicious and vile timing. They didn’t just target Christians, but they targeted them while they were worshiping on Easter, of all times!
Similarly, if someone were to massacre Jews on Yom Kippur, people would not simply say it was a massacre of Jews, but a massacre of worshippers on Yom Kippur (or, in a character-constrained medium, “Yom Kippur worshippers”). Or Eid. And so-on. It’s a common journalistic headline shorthand (I never thought there would be a day when I linked to Fox News, but…it makes the point.)
I think the rage-machine of Twitter, combined with the platform’s inherent character limitations, has consipired to turn an attempt to highlight the gravity(?) of the attack into an attempt to diminish that same gravity, and sow discord, and (once again) abuse the President as a lightning-rod/dog-whistle for hate, and all of the other terrible things Twitter is best at. :-(
// @JohnPhilpin
@smokey Actually I don’t think it was a tweet from him that I saw, though I guess his must have started people both using that phrase and then calling people out for doing so. I’ll admit it seemed to me an odd turn of phrase, and a slightly inaccurate one, but your explanation makes it more clear, so thank you. And I can’t imagine Mr Obama intending to be nasty or anything; he seems a very nice chap to me, from my slightly distant vantage point.
@vanessa :-) He is, without a doubt, the best man-as-human-being to have occupied 1600 Pennsylvania Ave in ~3 decades; for all of his failings as a political leader, he was (is) a very good person.
I agree the phrase seems awkward; it would not have been my first choice, and I’m sure on a platform that’s not character-limited, he would have chosen a more verbose and less likely to be confused one, too ;-) From the spate of Notre Dame-related articles using the phrase as part of their headlines (to which no one, as far as I know, has objected), though, it likely was fresh in his mind and would have seemed a good tool to employ in 280….
@smokey Yeah, you are probably right there. Even just on TV he comes over as measured and compassionate, irrespective of politics (American politics is lost on me - British is bad enough). So few statesmen in the world any more.
@smokey i would argue that one of the reasons there is as much publicity as we have is that westerners were also killed …. maybe that’s why hotels were attacked - not just places of worship - to ensure that ‘we in the west’ 'get the message’ ... because it is clear that we do not.
... and we certainly do not react when other religions are on the receiving end - regardless of who the perpetrators were.
one final thought - maybe too early to be absolute ... but it looks like these perpetrators had strong ties to ISIS / ISIL - you know those people that POTUS says have been beaten ...
politico - as an example of may such pieces on this topic
// @vanessa
@Smokey @vanessa and look at that - an example pops up 5 minutes later ….
‘Only’ 27 Shiites were beheaded this past weekend - by the guy that most people consider responsible for having a journalist killed in another country - and bringing his count up to 100 for the year to date. So much truth and transparency.
And our lead?
I did a google search for
27 BEHEADINGS IN SAUDI ARABIA THIS WEEKEND
Reuters BBC Independent The Hill The Guardian The Guardian again Middle East News Middle East Monitor Wikipedia Daily Mail
... were the 10 results back on the first page - The Hill (not exactly a mainstream ‘organ’ ) being the only US publication.
@JohnPhilpin @smokey Yes, I saw that news on the BBC news site - didn’t realise it had received little publicity across the pond. But Saudi has oil... Mind you, so does Iran. I can’t keep track of who is/isn’t in favour with our governments, or why. I generally opt out & avoid a lot of news. I know it’s not the right thing to do, but my depression is bad enough as it is ... Not helped by still being awake at 2:40am. ☹️
@vanessa @JohnPhilpin Exactly. All those petrodollars, in addition to lining the pockets of the al-Sa’ud and providing social services and development and funding various hardline conservative Islamist movements and so on, fund a very effective worldwide PR machine.
@JohnPhilpin It’s interesting you mention trying to get the attention of the West, because my first thought when I heard about it was that LTTE was back at it again.
When I was in elementary school, I had to do a report on Sri Lanka at some point, so I learned about the Tamil separatists, and thereafter every so often I would catch something buried in the news about them. This was coincident in time with IRA violence…guess what was all over the news?
@vanessa Also, I thought it was awfully late, or awfully early, for you to be posting 🙁 Hope you can get (back) to sleep 🤞
@vanessa I actually think not trying to over-consume news is a very healthy decision. I used to feel obligated to be a heavy consumer. I even followed Trump on twitter to see directly what he was up to. Then I realized how crappy it was making me feel yet it wasn’t doing anything to enable me to improve myself, the people around me, or the world. I now consume news in a more purposeful fashion.